Uber's Self-Driving Car Just Killed Someone

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by The Night Funky, Mar 19, 2018.

  1. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    This is a couple of weeks old, but just reiterating that you almost certainly wouldn't.

    Human factors relating to automation are a major theoretical and practical field of study and all that evidence says that when a task is sufficiently automated a human supervisor will lose focus on it and have increased response times to events.
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  2. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Captain X, what are your grounds for disagreeing?
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  3. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Rey of sunshine

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    He's an asshole? :shrug:
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  4. Sean the Puritan

    Sean the Puritan Endut! Hoch Hech!

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    I think there's a serious case for a major lawsuit here.

    https://www.abc15.com/news/region-s...suv-saw-pedestrian-in-arizona-but-didnt-brake

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  5. The Night Funky

    The Night Funky BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    Well, that's an interesting solution to the "trolley problem."
  6. The Night Funky

    The Night Funky BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    Looks like if Uber hadn't disabled Volvo's systems, the accident never would have happened.
  7. The Night Funky

    The Night Funky BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  8. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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  9. The Night Funky

    The Night Funky BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  10. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    This is something that is going to make a lot of cities hell to get around if licensing of automated vehicles isn't closely managed.

    Cities (outside of highways) are shared environments, and a lot of ground level activity and mobility was ruined by the motor lobbies pushing of terms like Jay Walking in the early 20th century which allowed them to successfully claim the roads as primarily belonging to them alone. We will no doubt see automated vehicle operators conceding that their vehicles are unable to effectively deal with shared environments, but attempt to present this as a problem with everyone else.
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  11. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    That's fucked up. This is super basic shit. No wonder they were willing to blame it on the driver.
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  12. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    theory versus reality will get you every time. :brood: Theoretically every driver/pedestrian/traffic situation works on paper! Sadly reality wads that paper up, starts it on fire, then shoves it down your throat.

    So I wonder what else the self driving car isn't programmed to handle? Fuckers camped out in your blind spot? Not using headlights? Seeing a deer's eyes reflecting fractions of a second before they run across the road, giving you just enough time to avoid them and getting only a few white tail fur strands in your grill versus getting it caved in? Random shit like wood, rocks, furniture, garbage, etc. flying out of the backs of trucks? The devil's in the details as they say!
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  13. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Yup. At least in the short term I'm very dubious of automated vehicles dealing with all those edge cases. Same thing we see with autopilot in aviation - when things go well they improve safety, but once an abnormal situation takes them outside programmed scenarios they become very dangerous.
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  14. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    and the "edge" cases seem to increase exponentially, at least in the US or maybe just my section of the US. :brood: Nearly ANYBODY can get a driver's license in the US - and it shows! Factor in a general attitude of aggressiveness, impatience, apathy, entitlement, electronic distractions, insufficient roadway infrastructure, uninsured motorists, and you have a very dangerous situation. Call me old fashioned but it takes doubling down on sound human judgement to avoid an accident under the best of conditions on a daily basis. There are "X factors" involving improvisation and multi-layered decision making that cannot yet be programmed into cars. There are times (many of us have experienced this) where a collision is unavoidable and you have to choose the lesser of two evils and decide what/who to hit and the safest way to hit it. Oh and also think a few steps ahead if more vehicles/objects/people are involved. And do this in fractions of a second and adjusting as it unfolds in real time. How many of us experience a "close call" now and then because somebody pulls some shit so fucking crazy that you have to ask yourself (or your passengers) "did that just happen? I have never seen anybody pull off a stunt like that before!" because it's so incredibly dangerous?

    And oh oh oh let's not forget we have an aging population of very long lived "never gonna stop driving!" :damnkids: people on the road!
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  15. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    On the subject of how much cars have ruined inner cities, this is how many of our cities were designed to be used:

    broadway1900.jpg

    Obviously progress and all that, but the modern concept that up to a full half of a cities area should be dedicated to space for single occupant metal boxes rolling around is astoundingly wasteful.
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  16. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    is that Wall Street? Kinda looks like it!
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  17. Zombie

    Zombie dead and loving it

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    Now a question I would ask as a lawyer......

    "Did Uber tell the driver that the car wasn't programmed to recognize and react to jaywalkers?"
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  18. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    I wonder, "Did Uber know that the car wasn't programmed to recognize and react to jaywalkers?"
  19. Zombie

    Zombie dead and loving it

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    That's a good question too.
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  20. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    So, I accidentally teed myself up a little there, 'cause I wrote that and then remembered something in another thread, so I posted without finishing the thought.

    The answer is: There's a good chance they didn't. Machine learning means completely labeling all of the input data. If you don't think of a label for a scenario, the computer can't recognize it. Jaywalking is an easy-enough scenario to recognize, so the odds are that they just never thought about it. Whether that rises to negligence remains to be seen.
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  21. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf Hamachi is a fish best served cold

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    Wow Las Vegas has changed a lot. There wasn't even a Senor Frogs on the Strip back then. Makes you think.
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  22. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    That would seem to be a problem. You’d think the lidar would recognize any obstruction and be programmed to stop.
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  23. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    Honestly, my grandfather who had Parkinson’s wanted to hold on to his driver’s license out of pride for as long as possible. I get it, he had a license for almost 70 years and like most of his generation was the driver of the family car so it was something of a badge of honor. To her credit my grandmother took to hiding the car keys near the end so he wouldn’t drive then later took up driving for the first time in her 80’s just so she could drive to see him each day in the care home.
    My mother had a stroke before dying of cancer and to her dying day the state of California said she was ok to drive even though three years earlier she had a stroke and no way could she have successfully driven without being a hazard to everyone else. Thankfully, my father made sure that never happened but the state didn’t do anything and even sent her her automatic renewal.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019 at 1:19 AM
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  24. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    You've got to process the lidar data. Aside from ghosts, which have to be discarded, you have to classify the thing it sees. If it doesn't recognize it as an obstruction (from the article, it sounds like it "recognized" her and her bike as a car), whether because it thinks it's another car or a plastic bag in the wind, it shouldn't stop.
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  25. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    I have to give my grandfather a shitload of credit. I thought he was going to be one of those people too proud to give up his keys because of his self perception of being strong and manly. He was the one who made the decision to finally give up driving. That had to be hard. I will make whatever time needed to make sure he has a ride to wherever he wants to go. I will also make sure to stay in the area even though I really want to be elsewhere, just to make sure there are extra people around to make things easier for him because of that decision. I am really happy he had the strength to make that decision because so many others wont. He may be a trump supporting racist, but sometimes he does surprise me with self awareness. No, I do not drive him nuts with arguments when driving him around either.

    It is hard getting old. If we could get self driving cars it would make the life of our aging populations so much safer and free. It would give them a reliable way too and from places and allow them to do so much more.
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  26. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    good point Tererun! But of course they would have to program the turn signals to stay on for a minimum of fifteen minutes longer than necessary! :no:
    I just had a weird random thought (can you believe it?) concerning old people and cars. If we lived for hundreds of years like they did back in parts of the bible, can you imagine how many cars we would end up going through by the time we die? If we kept the cars until they finally crapped out we'd still go through many dozens of cars in our lifetimes!
  27. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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  28. GhostEcho

    GhostEcho Christian Conservative (Republican)

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    upload_2019-11-8_8-47-25.png

    This is fire.
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  29. Soma

    Soma OMG WTF LOL STFU ROTFL!!!

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    You guys want all this fancy technology but do not understand what it takes to make it a reality. People have to get run over and killed in order to create the algorithms that enable self-driving cars. If you understood the mathematics behind machine learning, you would realize this. Uber took a calculated risk and will survive because they understand what needs to be done to create a product people like you will ultimately set aside your morals for because it makes your life more convenient. :)
  30. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    I would think there are layers to the automated driving system.

    A higher layer classifies objects in the video input stream, but a lower layer (perhaps using RADAR or LIDAR) detects obstacles or impending obstacles and takes high-priority action to intervene.
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