US gov't shutdown

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Fruitloop, Dec 22, 2018.

  1. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    4,405
    Ratings:
    +4,780
    You don't even remotely need to be a historian, America is just one country with a democracy amongst many, including dozens which were around long before. The concept has been evolving for thousands of years through the ancient Greeks (the Athenian democracy was just one of several attempts), the Romans, the Norse, the Icelandic, throughout eastern Europe in the middle ages, India, some native American societies prior to the arrival of the Europeans, the British.

    There have literally been thousands of democracies coexisting in a long line for millenia and the US is just one of the current batch, drawing entirely on previous incarnations of a tried and tested model, why would you think otherwise?
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    43,992
    Ratings:
    +24,756
    so both "Freedom Caucus" tools and supposedly mainstream GOP like Graham have expressed support for granting the executive arbitrary power to seize property and appropriate funds at will in order to achieve policy goals as he alone sees fit.


    We can now safely dispense with any remaining claim that Republicans supporter smaller, more restrained, weaker government and maximum liberty, just as we have disposed of the idea they are worried about spending and deficits. So what are they left with as a platform? As far as I can see it's bigotry and oligarchy.
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Sad Sad x 1
  3. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    43,992
    Ratings:
    +24,756
    A kleptocracy operated like a kakistocracy with delusions of being an Oligarchy.
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    52,168
    Ratings:
    +35,132
    Okay, so I forgot about Iceland. Sue me. :shrug:
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    22,989
    Location:
    Space the final frontier
    Ratings:
    +29,374
    Not just Iceland. The Republic of Venice was a 1,000 years old when it was absorbed into Italy in the 19th century, to throw out just one example.
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  6. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    68,824
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    Ratings:
    +25,652
    :doh: I can't believe nobody tried that yet! That answer was "hiding in plain sight" all along. Well the Democrats shouldn't bitch about zero dollars being used to fund the wall!
    Uh-oh....speaking of prayers: what if Nancy Pelosi blows a horn (keep it clean folks) and does a Jericho and makes the wall crumble? :drama:
    I don't want to be a Negative Nancy (no pun intended) or anything but still.......
  7. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    68,824
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    Ratings:
    +25,652
    nobody is comparing Mexicans to animals as far as I can tell. You are really over thinking this.
  8. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    52,168
    Ratings:
    +35,132
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  9. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    22,989
    Location:
    Space the final frontier
    Ratings:
    +29,374
    This guy is a state rep in TN and he is overjoyed.

    FB_IMG_1547354173480.jpg
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. Chad Kardashian

    Chad Kardashian Don't believe his lies

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,267
    Ratings:
    +23,703
    "Trump set the record for shitting himself on live TV...lmao fucking take that B. Hussein Obama. B. Hussein Obummer probably needed fucking vegetables from Michelle Chewy's garden to get enough fiber."
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    37,248
    Location:
    The Steam Pipe Trunk Distribution Venue
    Ratings:
    +2,147,498,993
    Hey, don't worry about those traitorous fucks at the TSA. :dayton:

  12. Chad Kardashian

    Chad Kardashian Don't believe his lies

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,267
    Ratings:
    +23,703
    Sweet that's enough to pay for their children's insulin copayments for 1 month.
    • Sad Sad x 1
  13. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    18,117
    Location:
    Sunnydale
    Ratings:
    +27,917
    What does happen to their insurance, anyway? Insurance companies aren't exactly known for saying "yeah, you can catch up on your premiums later." And if part of the premium is being paid by the employer, as is standard ...
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  14. Rincewiend

    Rincewiend 21st Century Digital Boy

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,380
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +1,563
    [​IMG]
    • Funny Funny x 6
  15. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    4,405
    Ratings:
    +4,780
    Well all you lovely conservatives and libertarians, you wanted a smaller government and now you have one :)
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  16. Marso

    Marso High speed, low drag.

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,469
    Location:
    Idaho
    Ratings:
    +13,062
    You haven't heard a word of complaint out of me yet, have you? I just wish I could select the agencies / programs to get defunded. :tasvir:
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    4,405
    Ratings:
    +4,780
    I was just making light of a shitty situation. I know no one really wants this regardless of their ideological background but what option really is there?

    Democrats won't be backing down readily and nor should they, equally Trump is not going to be able to fold without losing credibility with his base. Whilst the system has this bizarre lack of protections for federal workers they'll always be at risk of being used as pawns.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    23,822
    Location:
    An Underground Bunker in an Undisclosed Location
    Ratings:
    +17,643
    I'm sure they worked real hard for that.:dayton:
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    23,822
    Location:
    An Underground Bunker in an Undisclosed Location
    Ratings:
    +17,643
    I've been quietly sitting back and watching the show. I know at least one person affected by the shutdown. Would I like to see whole departments dismantled, yes. Would I like to shrink the government significantly, yes. Would I do it with, like Obama liked to say, with my pen and a phone, no. I don't think it's fair to play with people's lives like that, I'd do it over a ten year period so it allows for people to integrate into the private sector. Unfortunately these jobs already exist, so we need to just reopen the government and get these people paid, then go forward with legislation to deal with immigration. Honestly, I thought the shutdown would be over by now.
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  20. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    23,822
    Location:
    An Underground Bunker in an Undisclosed Location
    Ratings:
    +17,643
    • Agree Agree x 2
  21. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    4,405
    Ratings:
    +4,780
    It wasn't just you. People keep underestimating just how much of a game changer Trump is and just how unreasonable he will gladly be.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  22. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Current mood:

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    23,322
    Ratings:
    +25,697
    That, and some conservatives on twitter last week making the brilliant argument "if you've ever been to a zoo, you know walls work." :async:
    • Funny Funny x 2
  23. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    4,405
    Ratings:
    +4,780
    Oh good, you'll be safe from Mexican sealions :D
    • Funny Funny x 2
  24. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2014
    Messages:
    15,914
    Location:
    South Florida watching the meandering dead
    Ratings:
    +10,682
    How can you tell what trump jr. is saying with your head in his ass slurping his bullshit like that?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Captain X

    Captain X Responsible cookie control

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    15,254
    Location:
    The Land of Snow and Cold
    Ratings:
    +9,596
    I like how the ideologues keep acting like this is solely Trump's fault. :lol: Hate to break it to you guys, but this is a group effort. :diacanu:
    • Fantasy World Fantasy World x 1
  26. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    43,992
    Ratings:
    +24,756
    From Facebook

    Amy Patrick

    January 8 at 9:52 PM
    Howdy.

    To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.

    Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.

    Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

    What disasters?

    Off the top of my head...
    1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
    2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
    3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

    https://www.google.com/…/mobile.engineering.…/amp/17599.html

    And so on.

    The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

    http://fronterasdesk.org/…/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.…

    It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.

    I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.

    And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

    Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

    Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money.‍♀️

    This is set to public. Have a blast sharing it.
    ---------------------------------------------

    About that drone point:
    https://www.electronicproducts.com/...6R1S6IFimIOVhoIu-56xpSHViaH8w9Gscu-KeKarpOg38


    Also, there's a story circulating this weekend that points out all the ways that El Chapo got drugs into the U.S via mechanical means that a wall would be helpless against.
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 4
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  27. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    43,992
    Ratings:
    +24,756
    or childcare for...a week?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. matthunter

    matthunter Good enough

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    15,127
    Location:
    Exploring in the Lost Light
    Ratings:
    +16,525
    Pretty easy when the twat himself said he would be proud to shut down the government and would own it.

    Course, he's backed off the latter like the fucking cowardly little bullshitter he is, but you go right on licking his taint for him. It's nice you've finally found your place in life.
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Fantasy World Fantasy World x 1
  29. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    43,992
    Ratings:
    +24,756
    well yeah.
    Uncle Mitch could put the same bill on the floor that passed in December by acclimation but he's covering Trump's ass - so he's just as guilty.
    Meanwhile Quislings like Graham continue to insist that a wall is absolutely crucial despite voting for a bill without it last month and despite being in the majority for 2 years but never even having introduced a bill for it.
    And saying repeatedly before Trump was elected it was a stupid fucking idea.

    So lots of blame to go around.

    But none for the Democrats unless your argument is that we should commit billions to doing something every one of them knows is radically stupid because a radically stupid president promised his radically stupid base he'd do it.
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
    • Fantasy World Fantasy World x 1
  30. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    23,822
    Location:
    An Underground Bunker in an Undisclosed Location
    Ratings:
    +17,643
    Well, it's the House's prerogative to withhold money, so it's more on Trump than them.
    • Agree Agree x 2