US preparing war with Iran

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by RickDeckard, May 14, 2019.

  1. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Dayton: The students at the US embassy were acting because of something that happened 25 years ago - that's ages! They should have forgotten about it! :discuss:


    Also Dayton: We need to remember that Iran attacked our embassy 40 years ago! How dare they?!! :aurora:


    Missing from this discussion: US shooting down an Iranian passenger plane, US support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, US support for terrorist groups operating in Iran.
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  2. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Post #13 stated a question.
    "Contingency plan" is your claim. This was presented to "a meeting of top national security officials" and comes at the same time as the decision to "move an aircraft carrier strike group and B-52 bombers into the region", so the idea that we're talking about some dusty old plan sitting on a shelf somewhere is ludicrous.
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  3. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    It's different when it's America, because they're the good guys don'cha know?

    Anything America does must by definition be legitimate and justified because, well, it's America and obviously the tin pot middle east country must be the villains.
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  4. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Indeed, this has been made public knowledge for a reason and that's to send a message to Iran. It's sabre rattling and the Iranians are the ones acting like level headed adults here.
  5. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    it would be great if the Iranians here on WF would weigh in with their opinions on this situation! :yes:
  6. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Do we have any?

    I know a few at work but I'm not sure asking immigrants would be the most telling weather vane of public opinion in the middle east.

    I'd be inclined to bet good money few in the middle east who don't have a direct vested interest will be happy to hear about another potential build up of US forces. They know damn well where that leads and it's not in their interest at all.

    The region's suffered enough and we've (collectively, the west) never actually helped. On the contrary we've been the cause of a great deal of the suffering over there, current and historical, why not just leave them alone?
  7. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    The U.S. did not intentionally shoot down the Iranian passenger plane as you well know.
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  8. Marso

    Marso High speed, low drag.

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    Well, that's small fucking consolation to the families. It's the sort of thing that sticks in the national memory, too.

    I read a technical description a while back on what went wrong that day; I don't remember it well enough to expound on it here, but it had to do with the link setup between the ships and such, and maybe some user error IIRC. A bad day for everyone involved.
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  9. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    But the Iranian government intentionally sent students to storm an embassy? FFS you seem to be literally blind to your own countries failings and stuck in this mindset where the troublesome little middle eastern countries are to blame for everything.
  10. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    I suppose going with that line is somewhat better than your usual, of defending the right of the US to blow up passenger planes.
  11. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    I'm not talking Iranian immigrants spot. :no: My sarcastic point was you interact with the US (the mean old bully imperialist warmongering oppressors) :shakefist:
    on a US ran forum board but Iran doesn't allow their average citizens such freedoms. China just banned Wikipedia as yet another example of why it is indeed better to have the US maintain a "large and in charge" presence in the world rather than the alternative nations. Just sayin'
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  12. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    I got that, but last I checked Iran wasn't blocking access to star trek forums, they shut down access to a number of sites believed to have been associated with Stuxnet.

    Stuxnet, in case you were unaware, was a US developed cyber warfare program which did immense damage to their infrastructure. Again, US being the aggressor.

    That being said the Iranian government very possibly are increasing the internet content they censor, but so are most governments including the US and it doesn't really have any bearing on the point being made. This isn't about internet access, it isn't even about the way Iran does or doesn't treat its' citizens. It's about US power and influence. If there wasn't an agenda there they wouldn't even be on the radar and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    The Middle East has been fucked up time and again by western interventions dressed up as "liberations" or "peacekeeping". Most of the dictatorships in play there are in fact very much the product of earlier efforts by the US, European powers or Russia to gain a foothold there or interfere in their internal affairs and nothing about this plan is in any way intended to be humanitarian. They never really are, that's just the sales pitch.

    Do you really believe thousands upon thousands of people in Iran are celebrating right now at the prospect of American soldiers in the region yet again? When has that ever gone well for the people there? Even if we bring ISIS into the equation they owe their existence to earlier conflicts, which well you know.

    This is about US influence in the region and that is exactly imperialism
  13. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    The Egyptian and Saudi dictatorships don't allow their people such freedoms either, and they exist because of the "large and in charge" presence of the US. So fuck that. "Just sayin'".
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  14. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Amazing how a blind eye is turned to far worse human rights abuses in countries without the same strategic value. Iran deprive some internet access? Wow, try living in The Democratic Republic of Congo where it's considered entertainment to deprive you of a limb or your life, to rape you or your family in front of you or force you to torture your own children. Where are the 120,000 troops being publicly made ready as a "contingency" there?

    Please let's not pretend this has anything to do with helping the Iranian people. It's about US interests.
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  15. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    As I recall, the root cause of the incident was that the AEGIS operator misinterpreted an ascending target (commercial airliner) as a descending target, as if it was a military plane on an attack run. And IIRC, the Iranian plane was not monitoring the international radio frequency that could have warned them off. Remember, there was a surface action going on at the time . . . Vincennes was engaging go-fast boats. They were kinda in a tense moment and when they saw what looked like an incoming air attack, well . . .
  16. Quest

    Quest Did you bring your handcuffs? Staff Member Administrator

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    President Trump does not want to go to war with Iran. You heard me. Wars are hard. Wars are messy and unpredictable. Worst of all, wars are the president's responsibility. He won't be able to shift the blame onto anybody else, though of course he would try.

    No, this has the stamp of John Bolton and his neocon cohort. Remember, Trump hired Bolton because he saw him talking tough on Fox News, not because they share the same policy goals. Bolton would love to whip up a big old regime change war in Iran. Trump might think it's smart to bluff a war, but it will never be more than a bluff. So I really have to wonder what Bolton/Pompeo are playing at here. Seems like a lot of disruption and destabilization with no resolution forthcoming.
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  17. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    The Middle East is a cesspool, but war isn't the answer

    Like I've always said we should bleed them dry of their resources at fair market prices until they have nothing
  18. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Economic sanctions have a pretty dismal success rate though, in fact they are frequently counterproductive as a smart dictator can use it to encourage a bunker mentality amongst the population (see Saddam, KJU). That population is who really suffers, the ruling classes who represent the true targets will typically live in exactly the splendour they always did, often moreso given that they control the black market which develops.

    I'm led to believe Saddam privately loved having economic sanctions on Iraq given that it had served only to enrich him and further bolster his support. Similarly Lil' Kim seems to be rather enamoured with the image he can present of himself guarding his people from the wolf at the door and can use every hardship to his advantage by lying blame at the feet of the international community and claiming it further demonstrates how much his people need him.
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  19. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    This much I can agree with, war is definitely not on Trumps' agenda, not unless someone very persuasive has his ear.

    The problem is bluffs have a habit of escalating, leaving people unwilling to lose face by backing down.
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  20. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    Didn't the UN determine that economic sanctions on Iraq from 1991-2003 killed roughly 30,000 civilians each year?
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  21. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    I don't know off the top of my head but it does sound feasible. There's a very strong case that economic sanctions are war crimes in their own right in that they cause unnecessary suffering whilst serving little strategic purpose.
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  22. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    In regards to World War Two, Americans almost always hold the Japanese solely responsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor that brought the U.S. into the war.

    What they do not remember (and FDR made a point of not mentioning this when he asked for a declaration of war against Japan) is that U.S. economic sanctions were on the verge of destroying the Japanese economy. To the Japanese they had no choice but to attack the U.S. to free themselves up to seize the resources they desperately needed (mainly oil) to their south. Otherwise their economy would die and their military would be crippled well before a shot was fired against the U.S.

    Of course American economic sanctions were in response to Japanese aggression against China....
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  23. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    How do you equate economic sanctions with paying them for their resources at fair market prices?
  24. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    My bad, I misunderstood your post and answered a strawman.

    It was a good answer though.

    So what you are proposing is essentially, buy them out?
  25. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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  26. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    I would have to disagree with this to some extent. To an idiot who does not think things through war with an appropriate enemy is considered a simple thing which would bolster your base and ensure your re-election. Especially when we are presented with the last round of middle east wars which had a high amount of propaganda and support from the right wing. Even the Iraq war which was a disaster and based on complete bullshit is still considered a necessity by large sections of the right wing. With relatively minimal American military casualties, and large numbers of Muslim deaths many people consider it a win until Obama ruined it all by ending it.

    Trump is considered by many on the right to be doing a great thing by withdrawing from the Obama treaty and escalating things with the "evil" Iranian regime because they are evil. Starting a war would make him a wartime president and make a case for re-electing him to continue his campaign rather than switching leaders during a war. Not to mention wartime would be one of the areas where a president's powers would be increased and might give trump an excuse to try and stop elections because of a national emergency due to hostility. I am not saying any of these are decent ideas from anyone with a brain, but for the simple minded war is a good election strategy. this is not to mention the financial support for an election that would come from the MIC.
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  27. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    That didn't work for President George H.W. Bush.
  28. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    Oh please. This again. Everyone knows the U.S. has had presidential elections during far worse wars than any conceivable one against Iran. Even Trump knows that.
  29. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    Actually, he did not invade Iraq and the Kuwait campaign ended. Maybe you should try coaching again because your grasp of history sucks.
  30. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    Dude, learn to read.

    For a substitute teacher you would make a great donkey fucker.