Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Shirogayne, Dec 31, 2018.
Where are you getting that from?
no, but bottom line it's still consent. I am still making that choice for whatever my reason. If five years later I realize I shouldn't have, but I felt pressured at the time, how would I prove what my motivations were for having sex? If you are claiming rape you better have some proof.
It really does seem like the bar for some of these cases is being set far too low.
Is it rape if I have sex with the cashier from my local coffee shop, and she clearly said yes, but later she claims she only said yes because she was afraid I'd leave a bad Yelp review?
If a woman says yes out of "fear," how reasonable does that fear have to be before we consider it rape?
Well that's the point, consent has to be freely given, it can't be threatened, coerced, bribed. That person has to genuinely want to have sex, not feel they have to or are pressured into it. If the dynamic is one where one party is exploiting the power relationship to gain a sexual encounter from a reluctant other person, a "tepid yes", then absolutely it's rape.
The fact that has historically proved difficult to prove in a court of law is a problem, not a solution. It has allowed a culture to develop where sexual harassment and rape by coercion have become normality in many circles and that is the point of #metoo. Not what happens in a court of law per se, but about challenging attitudes which view coercive behaviour as acceptable.
I'm really not sure it is. Ultimately if there's any ambiguity in a situation then it's "no", that's pretty simple and isn't new.
If you're having to ask repeatedly, ply with alcohol, persuade someone or have anything but enthusiastic consent just don't go there.
Not every unpleasant experience has to result in criminal charges. Sometimes rapists get away with it because there's just not enough proof. That shouldn't be a cause for celebration.
Personally, if I had sex with someone and later found out their participation was less than fully consensual I'd feel terrible. I wouldn't be high-fiving my buddies like I got one over.
My thought would be it is still harassment as he still had the power to get them performances because he had influence over bookings according to what I have heard. If he was just another comic at a performance I would not call that rape or harassment if they consented. I don't consider fame alone to be coercion. I read that LCK was involved with decision making at some events, and also ran a club that was popular for standup and he was also supposedly egotistical off stage. This all could be bullshit made up by people seeking to make a buck.
That's not always the case though. Men are generally larger and stronger than women and generally men are in higher positions of power over women. So there is a huge power imbalance and a large man in a position of power over a woman can intimidate her into silence as he masturbates like in the case of Louis CK. Confidence is good, but all the confidence in the world isn't going to save you when someone is a foot taller than you, could easily kill you if he wanted and could ruin your entire career with a single negative word.
"If all of those women had been carrying when they went to see him, none of those things would have happened." Thus spake @Marso and colleagues.
We should arm all women and make it legal to kill a suspected rapist without trial or police involvement. So any woman who feels unsafe can unload. Even the odds. I'm sure men will approve of that since they aren't rapists and have nothing to worry about.
I bet you're a guy who thinks Samantha Geimer's mother pimped her out and that Polanski ought to skate on rape.
Well boy, that's not sideways victim shaming at all
That's a great position to formally espouse. It really is. But we both know that's not how it works in real life anywhere near 100% of the time.
Wait, did you not see my post in the El Chup memorial thread? I mostly posted it as a joking attempt to detail it, but I don't disagree with anything I said.
I think one of the attitudes that has to change is accepting free drinks without any intention of dealing with the person who bought them. Just buy your own drinks and blow the guy off. This idea that taking drinks and gifts from a man you barely know because you think he is friendly is sexist in it's own nature. You say you want to be equal then be equal. I don't get gifts from random guys just because I exist, and if I do get a drink or gift it is clearly an ice breaker.
I am not saying taking a gift or drink from some random person means you said yes, but you should not be taking anything for just existing. There is no reason to be taking free shit from people you don't know, or even from friends for that matter. That is equality right there. You and me are equal and you don't buy me shit for no reason. Guys should not be buying you free drinks for no reason, and you should not be taking them.
As for the guys, they cannot say you got them drunk to say yes when you did not buy them any drinks. I cannot agree with the idea that just because someone had a rink or two the answer is no. If they are fall down drunk, say no, have vomit on their breath, or are passed out then you went to far. However, people drink and fuck all the time. There is a soft cap to what would be using a drug to remove a person's ability to consent, but a couple of drinks does not make a person unable to consent. If you are that worried about your ability to drink and still say no then it is a great idea to stay sober.
That all feels too hypothetical to me, unless he actually made explicit promises or threats in relation to sexual favours.
Anyone with arms and hands has the power to punch someone in the face, but it'd be ridiculous to say that anyone who's ever said yes to sex with someone that's not an amputee was only doing so because they were scared of getting punched in the face.
I never met the guy to know, but from what I understand he could be a real ass towards other comics if he does not like them. On the other hand I have not heard much about him saying directly to someone that he would not give them a chance if they did not watch him jerk off. I have also heard he asked instead of rushing into a room uninvited and jerking off on the plants.
I don't know what the full truth is, but since he seems to be self made and his reputation is his alone I don't see much reason to go much further against him. I don't even think Netflix should have dropped him. He does not make any decisions for them, and they certainly still show movies from Weinstein and that contain examples of rape and sexual harassment. They are not a family programming company. They don't cut their content. He should be allowed to make his own content and distribute it and if I don't like it then I do not click on it. If he is sexually harassing or assaulting people from his own decisions then we have lawsuits and courts for that sort of thing.
Every time I've ever brought up the fact that a sizable number of dingbat feminazis argue that all heterosexual sex = rape, people like you have ridiculed me and denied that dingbat feminazis have ever said it.
But that's exactly what you're arguing against here, the stupid idea that "patriarchy" means that all women are always subjugated to all men all the time, and since any man is inherently granted more powerful social status than any woman, then no agreement between any man and any woman to engage in sex can ever be considered truly consensual. No woman is ever free to say "no," and if they say "yes" it's not really "yes" because it's the product of coercion.
So, it doesn't matter that CK asked these women for permission before he whipped his dick out, and it doesn't matter that they said yes. All that matters to the virtue signaling SJW LectureBot social media crowd is that now, years later, for reasons that don't matter to the SJW spastics, they decided to hop on board the #metoo train and exact some revenge because CK apparently didn't help them to fame and fortune the way they hoped.
So, why doesn't Sarah Silverman consider herself a victim of sexual abuse/assault? Why has she not come forward to say that she felt pressured/coerced/intimidated into letting CK jerk off in front of her?
Why does Janeane Garafalo seem to have no problem defending him from the relentless attacks and piling-on of social media dumbfucks?
Is it any wonder fertility rates are declining in this country?
Overton window. Before you were arguing with nonexistent lefty strawmen, so it was hard to get behind you. Now we've got the genuine article with spot911 and that other TNZ mod, who spew all manner of smug far-left nonsense in real time.
You should hear how much I criticize Islam when I talk politics with my hijabi coworker.
Other TNZ mod? I’m the only TNZ mod here, get it right dumbass.
I have known a lot of Muslims in America who are also very critical o the abuses of their homeland. Still, a lot of those abuses are more human than religious. All the other religions, including Christians and jews, fought among themselves, held sections of society down, abused children, abused spouses, went to war, and had petty internal power structures. America, which is a very young country, has had slavery, oppressive sexism, religious violence, civil wars, and violence along the lines of the middle east.
We all have something to complain about, and the reasonable people seem to recognize more of our similarities than differences.
How does it work? I've never done anything else personally - in fact I almost always wait for a female to take the initiative as a point of both principle and pride. I don't think that's virtue signalling, it's considerate of others feelings, it's risk averse from my own perspective and it's actually a far more effective approach than you might imagine.
Many ideals don't represent real life anywhere near 100% of the time, that's the whole point. The fact and scale of that disparity is telling when so many women (and let's face it, we aren't talking about a vanishing minority here) feel that what we consider normal, mundane interactions are victimising and oppressive. If we were talking about the odd extremist, a fringe view, sure we could brush it under the carpet quite reasonably but that isn't the case. It's a huge mainstream movement.
The simple truth is you and I don't experience the world from a female perspective and it's very easy to ignore (or completely miss) that dynamic when we aren't the recipients.
@The Flashlight, you seriously believe modern feminism is causing fertility rates to drop in the US or was that just a rhetorical comment?
Assuming the former do you have any idea how ridiculous that idea is? Fluctuations in fertility rates are very well studied phenomena on a global scale and the causes and interactions involved are complex in sociological, biological and medical terms, but the the idea #metoo is somehow the cause of a mass reduction in fertility falls flat almost at the first fence when you consider that the decline has been slowing since mid last century. In fact once you get past the massive drop in the 1960s (which just might have something to do with the availability of contraception) then there hasn't been much of a consistent trend for decades, merely a fluctuation around a norm:
In fact the idea there's a current all time low is actually pretty much open to the way one interprets the data and the above doesn't take into account the shifting mean ages of the population within the 15-44 bracket, the portion in the optimal 20-34 bracket or the upturn in environmentally driven medical causalities.
Controlling for those gives quite a different picture, as does rephrasing the criteria in terms of total lifetime births per woman, all of which suggest we aren't seeing an all time low at all:
Did @Dinner hack this account?
Again, my work bff is a sassy hijabi from Pakistan. I don't hate Muslims, but Islam itself has many faults, and some Muslim countries are fucking nightmares. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out. Try telling Canada's newest refugee about how the west is just as bad as Saudi Arabia.
Dinner is overjoyed
I haven’t seen FrontLine in years, I think I can have him declared legally dead. Borgs turned out to be a bunch of squirrels standing on top of each other in a suit, but they crack me up so I haven’t said anything.
I get what you're saying, and I've made that argument before myself, but I'm coming around to the argument that "other groups were equally shitty in the past" doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to judging the people committing atrocities today.
Separate names with a comma.