War, The Greatest Threat to Liberty.

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by The Ghost of Crazy Horse, Jul 8, 2020.

  1. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    Many great leaders have warned us of the dangers of war and most notably the Anti-Federalists feared standing armies. I believe that those fears were rightly justified. I don’t think most people here would disagree with the idea that the perpetual wars the United States has waged has not worked in favor of the people in this country or the people whom we’ve engaged in war with. There’s been a running theme in my posts over the years that have involved a narrative that includes taxes, debt, sound money, my intolerance to social welfare programs and of course war. I have said repeatedly that if we were to cut the military budget, I’d be less adverse to those programs. I even said it recently. I have no doubt that most people will agree with that. I’m not seeking praise. The wars we’ve engaged in since WW2 have only enriched congressmen and corporations. They are by far the biggest contribution to the erosion of liberty and progress in this country and a great source of why ever other changes that we all seek in our society is hindered. The changes that we seek in defunding the police is a noble goal and I support those changes. We should also seek to defund the military as well. So why am I starting this thread? Because I came across a quote that sums up my thoughts and feelings about these subjects a whole lot better than I. I wanted share it because of that very fact. I also wanted to share it because of the times we are in, no truer words have been spoken. They ring true now more than ever and they rang true back then as well.
    TL;DR
    Here’s a quote I found that I want to share and discuss with you.
    “Of all the evils to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops every other. War is the patent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, and debts, and taxes, are the known instruments for bringing the many under the dominion of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds are added to those of subduing the force of the people! No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.” James Madison
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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  2. Zor Prime

    Zor Prime .

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    What is it good for?
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  3. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Wordforge's Least Competent Wokelord

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    Pretty much everyone in the 21st century agrees that war is terrible and only a last resort to achieving political ends.

    The real question is, does America's gargantuan military empire deter more violence and conflict globally than it induces? Many would argue yes.
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  4. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    Absolutely nothing .
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  5. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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  6. Chris

    Chris Anime Protagonist

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    War
    n.
    When someone wants something so very badly that they send someone else to fight for it.
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  7. K.

    K. Sober

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    War is a terrible thing. However, to call it the greatest threat to liberty, as Madison did, while owning slaves, totally misses the point of the word liberty.
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  8. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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  9. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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    If America is ever to reclaim it's "greatness", losing the military welfare state is the first step.
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  10. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    At the very least, it totally misses the scope of the word liberty: there is a huge difference between "the greatest threat to my liberty" and "the greatest threat to liberty if you think of it in terms of all human beings". But that latter viewpoint was not very widespread in America at that time, Jefferson's noble words in the Declaration of Independence notwithstanding (and not being understood, either, including by the man who wrote them).
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  11. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    An essential step, yes. I fully agree.

    But the first step? I think the first step is to really apply the noble sentiments on which the country was founded ("all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, and that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"). All of America's shortcomings, down through its history, are directely traceable to the inability and/or unwillingness to recognize and apply those principles.

    Until that happens, the USA will just be another country. More powerful than others for the time being (like Assyria, Persia, Rome, Charlemagne's empire, Great Britain ans so many others who all had their "season in the sun" and then faded away) but no better. Certainly no "moral high ground".
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  12. K.

    K. Sober

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    True, though for Madison specifically, we know that he struggled with his role as a slave owner in the face of his political convictions, so he did understand that there was a problem. He just wasn't prepared to go as far as addressing it in his political theory.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
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  13. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Madison is overrated, radically anti-democratic and elitist.

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  14. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    You can't just enjoy the quote for what it is or says, can you? You've always got to stir shit up.
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  15. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    All men are created equally, that doesn't mean they get equal status or an equal station in life.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
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  16. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    War is good for business.
  17. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    This. This is why I love you.
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  18. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    Yes because the left needs to remind everyone what a shitty, racist country the United States is and how our founders were slave owners every single day of our lives until the end of time because no amount of progress will be good enough until this country is turned into a communist utopia and even then they'll find some fault with it. You guys are perpetual Karens.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
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  19. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    Me, K, and others: Speaks out against the 500 year institution of slavery in what would become the United States.
    Federal Farmer: "yOu GuYs ArE pErPeTuAl KaReNs."
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  20. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    Go fuck yourself,asshole! EVERYONE IS AWARE OF THE RACIST PAST, EVERYONE! EVERYONE IS ALSO AWARE THAT SOME OF THE FOUNDERS OF THIS COUNTRY WERE SLAVE OWNERS! You wanna talk about that shit, start another thread. That's not the point of this thread. I now regret even creating this thread because you guys won't let up for a fucking second. You make this place miserable. You post political shit in the meme thread FFS, it's tiresome. No wonder all of the other right wing people have left, we're all tired of the echo chamber bullshit. I think @T.R and I are the only hold outs and I don't know about him, but my patience is running thin. You've banned any other opposing voices and running off the rest. Yes, Madison owned slaves back then, a lot of people did. The point of this thread is not about that and the quote I posted doesn't make it any less true because Madison owned slaves.
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  21. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    [​IMG]
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  22. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    Cool it on the caffeine maybe? It will stunt your growth.
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  23. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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    how about basic human needs/tools to function?
    i.e.: if employment isn't nearly 100% (and pays enough for food, shelter, et al), wall street has some 'splainin' to do.
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  24. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    Okay ... if somebody mentioning that a Founding Father owned slaves and therefore it might be good to take their comments on liberty with a grain of salt can push you to this kind of meltdown, you might wanna ask why.
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  25. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    It's because people act like all of our accomplishments are meaningless because some of the Founding Fathers owned slaves. It doesn't matter that James Madison owned slaves. What he said about executive power and taxes is absolutely correct.
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  26. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    FB_IMG_1594170875516.jpg
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  27. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    It doesn't matter if I enslave other human beings for my own profit, as long as I talk good things about liberty, and set up a great system for my rich white buddies.

    Oh, and we're gonna need a fuckload more slaves for this new system.
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  28. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    That’s not what I meant and you know it.
  29. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    Your literal and exact words were:

    "It's because people act like all of our accomplishments are meaningless because some of the Founding Fathers owned slaves. It doesn't matter that James Madison owned slaves. What he said about executive power and taxes is absolutely correct."

    Now, read this:
    https://www.whitehousehistory.org/slavery-in-the-james-madison-white-house

    What part of that statement I made was incorrect?
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  30. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    CFC Edds cc Cox

    If Charles Manson said,” I think Jerry Garcia is an excellent guitarist” and I agree, it doesn’t mean I think Manson is a great guy or that I’m hand waving away the responsibility he had with the murders committed by his followers.