What is tolerance?

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Tererun, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    This is coming up in multiple places. People, especially the right, seem to be confused about what tolerance is.

    Tolerance is not agreeing with something or even liking something. You tolerate something existing or happening. It means you don't stop it. You might complain about it, argue over it, or disagree with it, but it still goes on. Just because someone does not like your opinion or idea and describes it in negative terms and tears you up for being a stupid idiot does not mean you are not tolerated.

    There is a next step to respect someone's idea which would mean not being rude or mocking it, but you can disrespect an idea while tolerating it. I can disrespect Christianity and it's odd beliefs all day long, but I am not for stopping people from being Christian. There might be places like government where it should not be, but government should be tolerant of it's existence as it does not violate laws based on not harming others unreasonably. By unreasonably I don't mean it cannot offend people. People who are offended by it need to tolerate it, but don't have to respect it.

    Learn the difference between tolerance and respect.
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  2. BizarroEnt

    BizarroEnt Liberal Queen of TNZ

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    Tolerance is how you react to a crying child, you can still being upset about it. It’s the bare minimum for acceptable human interaction and how you should treat everyone at the very least unless they’re a Nazi, pedophile, murderer or people who talk in movie theaters.
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  3. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    To be honest I find the idea of tolerance quite hateful in many contexts.

    In a newspaper headline (can't remember which one, it just caught my eye as a I was buying milk) there was something to the effect that the UK is currently "less tolerant" of same sex relationships than we were, presumably measured by crime rates or survey results. That struck a nerve for me.

    Who the fuck is anyone to tolerate (or not tolerate) someone elses' relationship. It's no ones' damn business except their own.

    Tolerating implies you are letting something slide, allowing it a pass for the sake of convenience or keeping the peace. That's still prejudice, it's merely prejudice kept under wraps.
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  4. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    Now you are going into like and respect. You don't have to like gay marriage or relationships. You can look at two gay dudes kissing and find that disgusting. That is OK, but you cannot stop it. There is a gray area about saying things about it or reacting to it. That goes along with manners, respect, and social consequences for your behavior, but you have to tolerate it between consenting adults. If you don't want to tolerate a gay wedding ceremony in your church I am really cool with that, and gay people can fuck off from that church. If you like the design go build one of your own and get married in it. If it is in the public square and it is offered for one group it should be offered for all groups, but you don't have to like what is going on.

    I hate football, baseball, and basketball events. I find their fans loud, Brutish, and annoying when they get together. Even though I think there are multiple negatives to how it is done and what it does to society, I tolerate it. I don't make any effort to stop those sporting events from happening. I will make comments about how annoying the fans are, but I don't have to like it, nor does it have to do anything but bring people together to exist as a thing that I have to tolerate.

    Like and tolerate are not the same thing, and what you are talking about is a different argument that I might not even agree with.
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  5. Fruitloop

    Fruitloop Hall Monitor

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    Tolerance is @Tererun having an active account at WordForge.
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  6. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    Now you are getting it.
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  7. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Tolerance means you have to accept bigots, and let them get away with everything from micro-aggression, to mild assault.
    But not homos, cuz icky poo.
    Or blacks, so long as you use the word "democrats".
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  8. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    I know the difference, but to me it seems pretty presumptuous for people to feel they are tolerating something when there's nothing to tolerate. It places a sense of indebtedness on any interaction, as though the "tolerating" party is voluntarily making some kind of concession. That's tolerance, but to my mind it's quite despicable, it implies the "tolerated" party should be in some sense grateful for the effort being made on their behalf where in fact they should be in a position to expect nothing else.
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  9. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    I think that becomes part of the problem. When you extend tolerance into like or even neutrality you are going to lose people.

    I tolerate dogs. I do not like them. I find them disgusting and annoying. I would never own one. I am even allergic to them so I have a negative physical reaction when around them. It is not terrible, but it happens. When I go out in the public space seeing and being around a dog is irritating and bothersome to me and I would rather they not be around at all. However, they bring joy and happiness to other people. Other people really love their dogs. I tolerate dogs in many public spaces because they are public spaces. I don't mind if people are simply tolerating others like I tolerate dogs. I don't mind if they wish I was not around. I don't mind that they might find me disgusting or whatever. Look @TheLonelySquire , he does not like gay and trans people for whatever reason. He tolerates them as far as he says. I am cool with that. I am even cool with him finding me disgusting and talking about his feelings.

    That is where we get into the next level of social contracts. Then we get into professionalism, manners, the benefits of being polite. In the dog example, most of the time I simply tolerate the dog, but if the dog is loud or aggressive then I have choices. Society has limits to what you can do. Bob can carry his gun around with him in town, but if he fires it he violates a few laws. How far do we want to tolerate something is an argument for individual things. Bob's gun can hurt people, but me wearing a dress does not really pose any danger to anyone's physical wellbeing around me, However, society does say my balls should not be dangling for you to see.

    We have to accept that in the public space there will be some things that will offend us, and we define that through laws, social contracts, and consequences for our actions. That has to be so and there is nothing wrong with having those things in the greater sense. In a specific sense those rules, laws, and regulations are up for debate.
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  10. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    I remember a black guy who was addressing the issue of tolerance in the United States. He said black people should expect more than mere "tolerance" from their fellow citizens. They should expect "appreciation". Interesting take on the tolerance concept.
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  11. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    He's right.

    Everyone should expect some level of appreciation, not merely "tolerance" which boils down to "being put up with"
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  12. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    Let us get to tolerance first, and it is not like while we are getting there other arguments cannot be made. Some people have been poorly educated on what is expected of them, and others shift the argument into positive areas which would cause a person who has negative feelings towards something to be irritated. By forcing someone to like something they do not you will only get a negative reaction. This is where the other side starts to tear away.

    They want to manipulate into a conflict and define the lines way back at prejudice. You play into their hands when you start telling people they have to like people being gay, or even just not feel bad about it. In your space you can be as racist, homophobic, and prejudiced as you want. When you start telling people how they have to think you are going to push people away. For that aspect I have to tolerate other people's disgust and hate. I cannot run around forcing everyone to like what I do even if it happens to be good in a general sense.

    I will agree that I have an opinion that I can argue very well that respect and manners make things better, and we can multitask, and have to multitask. However, we need to recognize with a certain group of people we have to get to the point of tolerance. In the public space and government there has to be tolerance for consenting adults to exist as they are as long as they are not unreasonably hurting others we have to tolerate their presence.

    You are correct that we don't have to tolerate things we like because we like them. However we do have to tolerate a certain amount of things we do not like in public space and when we interact with other people. That basic social contract is being perverted.
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  13. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    Amazingly enough, I agree with your entire first paragraph. Go figure!

    Not sure what what you're on about regarding sports though. I think the benefits of competition far outweigh the negatives that come with it.
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  14. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    Regarding my thoughts toward you, just because I don't support some aspects of your lifestyle doesn't mean I couldn't like you as a person. Your politics are far more repulsive to me than anything else. I'm live and let live and I could be friends with anyone.
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  15. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    Tolerance, simply put, means being aware that people who are not you have their own thoughts and ideas. So long as those thoughts do not infringe on the rights of others, they're not your concern. A lot of you right here on Wordforge believe goofy things like "communism works," or "you can run up debt forever with no consequences," or "it's possible to tax a country into prosperity." Or even that a half-wit history teacher in Arkansas is worth engaging in discussion. And we tolerate this for the sake of diversity of thought.
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  16. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    You’re being mighty generous there, chief. :bergman:
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  17. Amaris

    Amaris Princess of Love

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    To me, tolerance always felt more like "you're lucky I'm allowing you in my presence." It feels very antagonistic. I try to give everyone a basic level of respect and kindness, in the hopes that they will share more of themselves, and maybe forge connections with other people, and myself in particular. It doesn't always work, but it's often worth the effort. I think people can tell when you only tolerate them. There are people I talk to whom I know for certain merely tolerate me, and would much rather I not be around them. It hurts, but when I'm being "tolerated," nothing I do will have any effect, because they're seeing my actions through a lens of "tolerance," and so I will always be allowed just enough room to go away and nothing more.
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  18. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    This.
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  19. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    Don't get hung up on semantics. Tolerance doesn't mean "suppressed hatred." Probably more like "benign indifference," if anything along those lines. Appreciation requires that you demonstrate some quality beyond simple existence that would inspire appreciation. Much like respect, it has to be earned, not just demanded.
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  20. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

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    Tolerance is how Dinner is able to drink as much as he does.:ramen:
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  21. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    I disagree, the semantics matter.

    Appreciation is an acknowledgement that all human beings have intrinsic worth. Obviously that appreciation can be seen as flexible based on presentation but I do believe there's a baseline somewhere which represents an essential minimum that all humans should enjoy by default.

    Tolerance, on the other hand, is a word with a very clear meaning. It is about willingness to accommodate something untoward or unpleasant out of necessity or social convention. In the instance of minorities such as LGBTQ people or PoC that in itself is a value judgement and not a desirable one. It's akin to referring to an unpleasant smell or background noise rather than a human being who has every right to be seen as an equal.
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  22. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    Citation needed. Assertion not supported by evidence.

    So after literally decades of liberals screaming about tolerance, suddenly it doesn't mean what you've all been saying it means any more? Interesting . . .
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  23. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    I don't think the value of human life is something which should require evidence, but who said I was a liberal?
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  24. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    Your posts in this thread sure seem to point that way.
  25. Amaris

    Amaris Princess of Love

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    Super left wing person here, and I don't care for tolerance in the sense that other people often use it. For one, I don't tolerate intolerance, since tolerance is the absolute baseline for human interaction. It isn't something you welcome, it's something you hold at arms length and have no investment, emotionally or intellectually, in its welfare. So to "tolerate" someone who is gay, for example, means whether they live or die is none of your concern, just as long as they stay out of your way and out of your awareness as much as possible. That's just a shit way to deal with human beings.
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  26. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Liberal in the sense you mean is very much an American concept, a product of the two party system.

    I don't think it really applies outside of that context or in other political environments. There are issues on which I align with liberals, but I'm certainly not inclined to pigeonhole myself as one.
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  27. Amaris

    Amaris Princess of Love

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    This. Most American liberals are European conservatives, or moderates at very best.
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  28. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    That's my default position. My interactions with other human beings are driven primarily by how annoying they are.
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  29. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Then why interact beyond that required by necessity?
  30. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    Ah, you begin to understand.