Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Tererun, Feb 8, 2019.
Ok Dayton, if you don't believe me read on:
Oh and clinical evidence regarding homophobia
This is the exact same study as I referred to above. It doesn't offer any proof or consistently even make the claim you think it does.
Yes it does.
As with all studies, this one had several limitations. As the authors pointed out, all participants were college students, so it may be helpful in future research to test these effects in younger adolescents still living at home and in older adults who have had more time to establish lives independent of their parents and to look at attitudes as they change over time. Additionally, given the correlational nature of many of the present findings, causal and developmental inferences cannot be reliably made. Finally, it is important to point out that implicit measures are not a perfect window into an individual’s psyche or “true” sexual orientation.
All studies have limitations, ergo we should never draw any conclusions from them at all?
The idea that homophobia is inked to repressed homosexuality goes all the way back to Freud and has been pervasive in psychology throughout its' progression through behaviourism and cognitive theory through to modern evolutionary theory.
By all means feel free to point out the flaws in the Ryan study but bear in mind it isn't in a vacuum. Interestingly the Ryan study is entirely in fitting with the findings that homophobic aggression is exacerbated by prior exposure to homoerotic material.
Of course not all homophobic people will be repressing homosexual feelings, it's enough for our purposes that some are and that a great deal of anti gay feelings can be linked to the desire to assert masculinity and provide distance from perceptions of femininity.
For starters the studies in question all involved college students.
While this isn't necessarily a universal truth, college students by and large tend to be more sexually adventurous than most for obvious reasons. Remember the old expression "everyone in college experiments".
Sexuality is fluid but most people are fairly consistent. Some studies have shown that a large portion of men have had some sort of homosexual experience, maybe not sex though. But no one suddenly turns gay all of a sudden. They were always gay and either took a while to deal with that due to social pressures or just never revealed it.
No, just one of the studies (Ryan) is stated to have made use of college students as participants and "being adventurous" isn't a physiological response. Gaining an erection is. Furthermore it's one that allegedly heterosexual males who voice homophobic views are more likely to display than than their more tolerant peers, which is entirely the opposite of your suggestion that the study reflects a permissive campus culture.
The use of college students as a limitation isn't based in an adventurous spirit, it's in the potential for a demographic bias. It's a methodological weakness, not an alternative explanation.
Additionally for your objection (the adventurous spirit) to hold water you'd essentially be conceding that there is no such thing as true heterosexuality as sexual preferences are malleable depending on context (ie college in this case). Likewise if you are holding (incorrectly by the way) that "gay conversion" is truly effective then that also indicates you have a fairly flexible view of sexuality. Does that mean a program could be devised to convert you to be attracted to men?
Conversion therapy? More like perversion therapy!
Did you? What was his name? You guys go out on dates, or was it just a random hookup? Do you still think about him?
Of course I experimented. I asked a number of girls out on dates. Unsuccessfully as it were.
That's not what they mean by "experimenting."
I thought that "program" already existed. Or haven't you heard of "situational homosexuality" as in men in an all male environment such as prison. Or in earlier times extensive periods isolated with only other males such as at sea.
But it is what I mean. I never dated in high school or had any kind of physical experience with girls. So trying to date in college was a major venture for me.
No no. Dayton is right.
A homosexual trying to date girls in college would count as experimenting.
If you're straight, however, that's not an experiment, no matter how much experience you might or might not have with people of the opposite sex. It is simply the normal process of trying to form a romantic relationship with a person of the opposite sex. It could only be considered an experiment if you decided that you weren't interested in romantic relationships and decided to remain single.
I'm well aware of situational homosexuality, I work in a secure hospital
It is, however, completely different to the processes involved in gay conversion therapy. One is a broadening of proximate cues (or possibly an openness to those otherwise unexpressed), the other positive punishment and crucially neither actually make any predictive statements about the sexual behaviour of the individual under non coercive conditions.
My point is that you personally are conceding that true heterosexuality is on a spectrum of sexual behaviours?
"I'm well aware of situational homosexuality, I work in a secure hospital "
hmmm... - if it's truly "secure" then wouldn't people would be controlled & monitored to the point where they don't have the opportunity for sex? Asking for a friend!
Or is the secure hospital like prison where the state has the (theoretical) responsibility of the welfare of their inmates but lots of people still get raped and assaulted?
I'm aware of it because of the measures we have to take to prevent it....
do you prevent it successfully? US prisons do a shit job of preventing it. I can't speak for medical prisons (long term care), nobody I know has been there, just regular prison & jail.
I thought many U.S. prisons made little or no effort to prevent prison rapes because they use it as a means of internal control. Inmate is terrified of being raped by other inmates so he becomes willing to do whatever prison authorities ask him to do to avoid it.
I used to have male students who would talk brashly like they were tough guys and what they would do if they were in prison.
I would sneer at them and say "you might as well bend over and walk in backwards".
By and large yes, the environment is built around the need to closely monitor patients either individually or in manageable numbers, as are the ongoing risk assessments and flexible staffing levels required to accommodate additional observation. I think in my 14 years I know of maybe four incidents where an act actually commenced but was prevented "mid flow" so to speak.
We're moving site in the next eighteen months (in fact part of the reason I'm currently so indisposed was walking away from a role in the design of the new build last year and voluntarily taking a drop in grade - long story I'll tell you in pm if you're remotely interested) which will have larger wards and that's a potential concern depending on the layout. I've seen some pretty awful builds which are seemingly purpose built to create danger zones where people (patients and staff) are isolated and vulnerable but I'm pretty confident we're not doing too badly with this.
In prison it's much more common, for a start they have far lower ratio of staff to inmates and risk management is much less personalised. It wouldn't be fair under the circumstances to judge them on that but it's definitely a point of divergence in what can be delivered in the respective environments.
Dayton as you know lot of young people talk shit about a lot of things, and prison is no exception. The problems occur when they actually believe their own bullshit! A friend of my son's went to juvenile prison (he's had friends in big boy prison too but who hasn't?) when he was 17. First he was in Augusta which wasn't that bad. But when he got transferred to Atlanta for the long stretch HOLY SHIT! It was a fucking mad house! Huge fucking dudes! Some of these kids could break an adult's neck! Now my son's friend is white and small.
Call me racist but it's a fact - in Georgia the prison (adult or juvenile) population is majority black. A small weak white inmate has a target on their back the second they step foot in the place. Guards can't be everywhere and some are criminals themselves - the vetting process is for shit. That's the reality, debate the reason some other time.
Anyway when my son's friend realized the hand he'd just been dealt he looked for the smallest weakest looking white kid he could find. He got in a fight with the kid (hell he initiated the fight) so he could get put into segregation (solitary sort of but being kids not as strict) where he would be safer. He chilled out and read books - that's what he did a lot of anyway before he got sent there. Sadly the kid he attacked lost some teeth and he felt bad about that but that's the way it played out. A lot of folks lose teeth or otherwise get injured when locked up.
But the shit talkers who say they will "walk up to the biggest baddest guy in the prison" and fight them to prove they aren't afraid of anyone are delusional. The biggest baddest guy in prison always has a lot of friends around him. The biggest baddest guy and his friends will gang up on you and stomp your ass into dust before a guard can stop it. Prisons are full chock full of gangs and many fight because they are obligated to if another gang member is attacked. Prison isn't like "Cool Hand Luke" by a long shot!
It worked for Pee Wee Gaskins though. To be fair he murdered the biggest baddest guy in the prison while the unfortunate was sitting on the toilet but you make it happen anyway you can I suppose.
apples & oranges really. Anyone can murder someone by planning & scheming. Attacking someone right there in front of god & everybody is another thing entirely.
Share your experiences. After liking men your entire life, what was it like asking women out in college?
You're wrong. It's a principle embodied by our laws. Most notably in the US Constitution in Article VI, clause 3 and the First Amendment, and more recently with the Lemon Test.
Short of not allowing people to have any contact with another non-staff person there is nothing that is 100% secure in a secure hospital or jail.
I work in a secure jail and we have to deal with the same issues.
Absolutely, the best you can do is manage risk, not eliminate it completely. We do have the dice loaded somewhat in our favour but even there nothing is ever guaranteed. To be frank the main security concern we face tends to be drugs being smuggled in and out.
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