Has American Education Ever Really Been That Good?

Let's look at it from a purely fiscal perspective:

High school dropouts have a far greater tendency to end up incarcerated.

It costs the taxpayer more than 80K a year to keep one inmate in prison.

How much does it cost to educate a kid to a high school diploma and turn him into a productive wage earner?

Is that the educational setup Arkansas has? No wonder you're in the bottom five states in terms of education.

What kills me is that Dayton thninks that giving up on "unteachable" students should be acceptable and letting them drop out or even expelling them is fine. During my high school years, the only time I'd ever heard of someone dropping out it was temporarily and usually for medical reasons (serious illness, pregnancy, etc.) and they were back at school the next year. The only "unteachable" students had legitimate handicaps and were placed in special education classes. It just speaks to the culture of where Dayton lives that not only does he not value educating everyone but so many of his students don't value their own education to the point that it encourages apathy in Dayton and his coworkers. Everyone in my graduating class was obsessed with not only graduating, but graduating on time with some college prep courses under their belts. That should not be abnormal, but apparently it is in Arkansas.

Calling complete BS on this one.

"EVERYONE in my graduating class was obsessed with not only graduating, but graduating on time with some college prep courses".

Total BS on your part.

Dayton, can I ask you a question for the sake of curiosity? In the school in which you teach, how many kids are male and how many are black or hispanic?

IIRC, the general numbers are about 48-50% male and around 70% black.

And I know what you're getting at. But my last school was 80% white and my opinions were pretty much the same (go back through My Diary if you doubt that).

I did actually already know the demographics of where you teach, but I wasd not prepared to release that info here or raid your Blue Room thread without asking. I know how eager you are to see everyone else fall on their sword vis á vis the rules.

Anyhow, given that there is a problem in America with ethnic minorities having even less of a chance at succeeding, especially among black youths, is there not an even greater chance of them turning to crime and poverty if they are kicked out of school or abandoned?

Your question is reasonable.

But a bigger question might be this:

How much do the 10% I've mentioned expelling HURT the education process for the remaining 90%?

How many valuable resources are diverted to try to squeeze performance out of what are at best marginal students that could best be redirected toward those with a much greater chance of succeeding.

Ironically, you, Chad, Garamet and others have instinctively sought out the LOWEST POSSIBLE GOAL of an education.

You're talking about "keeping them out of prison".

I think education should aspire to something greater than that for the vast majority of its students.

Really? I don't think you know any of my former high school classmates. We may not have all enjoyed high school, but even that was motivation to graduate. That you are making such an assumption that even one student didn't want to graduate high school on time speaks more to the poor education of your hillbilly town.

I didn't realize it at the time, but I was lucky that I attended a public high school which was rated in the top 250 in the country during my attendance. It was no surprise that it was rated so high, we had high quality teachers who cared about their students, something you might not be familiar with.

Except you didn't say that.

You said EVERYONE was OBSESSED with graduating ON TIME and with COLLEGE CREDIT.

I don't believe it nor do I think anyone here would. Unless you graduated from some tiny school with 8 in the class or something.

You're calling where I work a "hillbilly" town is hilarious in the extreme.

And given I do not know what school you attended, I'm still calling BS on this and challenge you to prove otherwise.

If my question is reasaonble why won't you answer it?

Are you saying that some kids should get a better education at the expense of others getting none at all?

If educational standards are fit for purpose then the quality of education provided should be sufficient to provide at the very least, an education of standard quality to those who are better.

Education should aspire to do the best for every student, come what may. I don't accept the notion that it's survival of the fittest and you condemn the adult lives of people while they are children in favour of child prodigies.

What would you do about a student who, say, hates school because he is bullied. He's unco-operative as a result and generally a classroom nightmare. Should he be abandoned because bullying has caused him to feel anger, depression and anxiety?

Fuck no. That would last about three and a half minutes before I'd be hauled away by men in white coats. But I still see education as exceedingly important. Which is why I admire anyone who can do it well.

I kind of agree with you (and Dayton) that there are 10% or so who don't want to learn. What I was getting at is that they can, if they want.

The answer, in my view, is streaming. Get the dickheads into their own class, with some hard-ass teacher trained to deal with them.

Really, you're going to mince words? Yes, everyone was obsessed with graduating on time, some with college prep courses not credits. I took college prep courses, not all of them granted me transferable college credits.

Unless you recently moved away from Arkansas, it's not.

What do you want, a copy of my diploma? I'm not as willing to give up my personal information as you are. I don't care if you don't take my word on this. At the end of the day, I've still had a better education than you.

My high school graduating class had no unteachables. The three local schools around it, however, had a good chunk. Depends on the neighborhood and size of school.

I work with students each weak as I volunteer at AWANA which my church holds. No matter what you think about it teaching kids Bible verses, I have seen a lot of these kids grow tremendously in memorization ability as well as in reading ability. It's great!

However, of the 8 kids my wife and I work with, the bottom two take up 80% of our time, and get the least results. The main difference in these two students seems to be in the amount of help they get at home. So, we have to repeat verses to them, help them with words, etc.

I am rather proud though, as one of the kids is in second grade and I'm apparently the first person in his life to help him sound out words. 20 minutes a week with him for a total of 8 weeks has really helped him. He did have some discipline issues at first. I told him not to come back if he wouldn't obey. :| Teachers, of course, can't really do the whole "don't come back" thing. :|

The "unteachables" are incredibly small in percentage. Everyone can learn, but how many are willing? I Just want to put them all in a room and hand them over to an online school. They need to finish just to prove they can finish something.

I teach at a 90% poverty school and the apathy from the students created by the state is getting worse with every passing year. There are no consequences for these kids. If they fail the school has to go out of its way to find a way to show that they passed there EOI's. (There are other tests they can take to show competence in a subject) Even if a student fails ALG I he gets to go on to Geometry. I hate that part.

And the curriculum is going national. 40 out of 50 states are adopting the Common Core Curriculum which is a good idea IF they would support it with consequences for students and not just punishments for schools.

If we don't have so many enrolled daily, our ACT isn't a certain score, our Graduation rate isn't extremely high, and our drop out rate extremely low they start looking at putting us on the at risk list and from there they want to close us down.

And lets face it they really want to close the smaller schools and bus the kids an hour away. <---This came out of our state department.

And by the way unless you have taught please don't act like it is easy to deal with 20 hormones and immaturities in one room and try to get them to learn math. It's not as easy as you want to think it is. I consistently get 4 and 5's on my evaluations but this is my last year. I'm tired of fighting. I wish these kids could see how awesome they can be and how much they could learn. I'm just tired of wanting more for them than they do or their parents do.

Yes he should. You think bullying is magically going to disappear when they turn 18? or 25? Dealing with bullys is part of life. Do you suggest an "escort through life" to protect people from bullying?

There is zero evidence of that.

And in regards to the other, you can provide whatever proof you wish, but if you don't wish to provide any proof of a wild ass claim like you made, then don't make it.

You've shared where you attended school (including your college). I'm satisfied with knowing that I've had a better education than you, but it makes me feel sorry for your students. Again, I'm not in the business of putting too much personal information out on the internet. Perhaps I can thank my education for that.

Or your cowardice.

I'm betting on the latter.

And given that I was taught by actual professors at my college where as a vast number of "big name" colleges send graduate assistants to do the actual teaching, I'm still betting that I have a better both formal and informal education

Education is a good as the teacher. The problem is that the good and dedicated teachers are held down by the bad teachers who don't want to have their abilities measured or have any accountability for the job they do. Its a government/socialist system where good and bad make the same pay with little motivation to do better. The only thing that seems to bring good fortune to teachers is how well they play the politics of the school, the only possible end result of a government system.

Nope, I'm just not as stupidly loose with my personal info as you are.

I was taught by actual professors as well, and I still have occasional contact with them. The graduate assistants did TA work. Stop while you're behind.

Once again. Proof or it didn't happen.

I think the state system is the bigger problem, moreso than the students. Kids are smart to pick up on things, and the minute they realize that they don't need to put effort into school and still pass, what do you think the majority of them will do?

It also doesn't help that most parents are only too happy to push them kids through school to save their own faces, like my mom did with my brother. He didn't even TRY, and he may or may not have have legitimate ADHD....but he had good grades till fifth grade, so he wasn't like he wasn't able to learn. He just learned how to manipulate the system and my mom, and did that. I had to pretty much do his Econ final for him, just so my mom would shut the fuck up. If I didn't live at home, I would have flip him the bird and tell him to remember the answers for next years final.

Thats the most retarded shit I've ever read.

I'm sure it doesn't work like that in the steaming turd you call a state. You know, aspirations and shit.

Oh it happened, I'm happy knowing that it did, and that you think I'm lying.

Have fun with your shitty thread, and with ruining the minds of Arkansas' future.

You've had someone online call your last employer, you get trolled on a regular basis about incidents in your marriage, and nearly every aspect of your life gets mocked and laughed at. and yet you STILL think putting your whole life online is a good idea?

I'm surprised you have an IQ that's high enough to even breathe, let alone teach.

The worst part of it is that Dayton says that people should stand up to bullies. Yet, if his internet conduct is anything to go by, he has show himself to be the first one to go running to teacher (i.e. mods) when anyone gives him shit, rather than to fight his own fight.

The same state that produced the most successful liberal president and one of the most beloved liberal presidents for the U.S. since WWII.

Same public education system as well.

Referring to Bill Clinton of course.

Although he got the fuck out of there for college...