What does *positive* masculinity look like?

No one's perfect.

From one story I heard, James Avery got the part because he came in for the audition and yelled at Will Smith (who he was unaware was Will Smith) to take his feet off the coffee table

I think he would have got the part anyway. James Avery was a damn good actor.

James Avery was the best Shredder, bar none. And that's including the Super Shredder from TMNT 2: The Secret of the Ooze.

So identifying as a man and being a good person -- that's all there is to "positive masculinity?"

Fred Rogers, for example, is soft-spoken, mild-mannered, and likes working with small children. That strikes me as feminine. So other than being male and identifying as a man, what aspects of his behavior are particularly masculine?

Besides being dead? I heard he killed 25 North Korean soldiers with his bare hands during the Korean War, although I guess that's not really positive.

*VC, not NK. Get your disproved myths right, fuck.

Goku from DBZ

Pretty much. There's more than one way to be masculine. That's why I made the list.

That makes me sad for you.

What behaviours do you believe to be mandatory in order to be considered masculine?

@14thDoctor

I think the concept of masculine vs feminine is too nebulous to have much meaning. When I say Fred Rodgers is feminine, I am relying on traditional stereotypes, not my personal take. You seem to concede that "toxic masculinity" is just behaviors we dislike that happen to come from men. But when women behave badly in the exact same way, (eg, boorish, aggressive, disrespectful) is this also toxic masculinity, or is it toxic femininity?

I think bad behavior is bad behavior regardless of who's doing it, so why bring gender into it? If you can't pin down exactly what behaviors constitute "positive masculinity" (contrasted against positive femininity) then this reinforces the criticism that this isn't about behavior, it's just about androgyny. "Toxic masculinity" is a concept with no meaning, just a tool to hate on men.

Toxic masculinity doesn't just refer to behaviours we don't like that are seen in men, but behaviours that society tells us men should espouse.

Macho bullshit like looking down on nerds, picking fights and having to "be the toughest".

Not showing emotion.

Being a "dominant" man who keeps his woman in her place (and thinks she likes it).

Society has prized these values in men, but they aren't worth praising.

@matthunter

Okay, so simply being a man and avoiding those toxic behaviors, is that all it takes to constitute "positive masculinity?" I am still finding this definition to be inadequate and confusing.

It’s simple, “don’t be a fuckwad”.

My sandwich ain't gonna make itself.

I think you make a good point here -- because masculinity and femininity are social constructs in the first place, we have to define positive masculinity by starting from the existing societal frameworks. A man can be inconsiderate, untrustworthy and various other bad things, and if those behaviors don't have roots in the roles society has traditionally assigned to men, they don't count as toxic masculinity. By the same token, positive masculinity isn't just being male and being a good person; it's taking those behaviors that are socially coded as masculine and mining them for the good instead of the bad.

One example ... stoicism is coded as a masculine trait. It becomes negative when it goes in the direction of "men shouldn't show any emotion other than anger," but it can be good to be a person who's skilled at compartmentalizing their emotions and setting them aside in order to be a solid rock of support for someone else.

Bad behavior is bad behavior, but I think there's value in talking about specific types of bad behavior that come from gendered expectations, because then you can talk about the roots of those behaviors. If a person can say "maybe I feel this way because I've been bombarded since childhood with the message that this is how men are supposed to be," that's more useful than not knowing where a problem comes from.

Because boorishness and aggression are not coded as feminine, a woman who behaves that way is being toxic, but is not engaging in toxic femininity. Negative traits that are coded as feminine include being passive-aggressive, gossiping, and talking about people behind their backs. So a man who does those things is toxic, but not engaging in toxic masculinity; a woman who does those things is engaging in toxic femininity.

It looks like a male who does not depend on external validation to determine "toxicity."

In other words: a sociopath.

An adult.

That's not being an adult.

That's lacking self awareness.

What species are you that you were born with an inbuilt understanding of language, social interaction, and morality?

The rest of us learn those things from others, which yes, includes validation that you are doing well or feedback that you aren't.

Which has exactly fuckall to do with the irrelevant opinions of self-important gender enthusiasts presuming to approve the valid forms of masculinity.

Which has exactly fuckall to do with:

But everything to do with the, ahem, validity of external validification.

Sure it does. It's just viewing it from the other direction. The person disregarding irrelevant opinions vs. the source of the irrelevant opinions being disregarded.

When it comes to matters of opinion, (generic) yours are not valid in (generic) my case I fucking say so.

Who said it was about you?

External validation is exactly how we learn to guage the value of our moral choices.

For your opinion to be more valid, you'd have to be a special snowflake.
(Kirk)
You are the error!! Destroy the error!!

On whose behalf did you think I was speaking?

Not everything is a moral choice, and not all external validation is of equal worth. In that hierarchy, the opinion of your average purple-haired gender enthusiast on the subject of masculinity ranks just below that of your average millionaire celebrity on the subjects of environmentalism or wealth inequality.

Main, hair dye really sets you off for some reason, doesn't it?