What does *positive* masculinity look like?

Can't argue with that.

Never heard of that. Cindy admits that their marriage wasn't perfect but it was happy and she had no regrets - she just wrote her memoir.

But then, I don't regard positive masculinity as inerrantly inoffensive. People are going to disagree at times. For example, she was an opioid addict for a time, which he helped her through.

To me, the term "toxic masculinity" is less about individuals and more about how society as a whole both treats men as "automatic authority" and at the same time, tells men that you can't cry or have good friends or express your feelings in anyway.

The combination of both those things is why men think women are here to serve them and that they can get away with anything and not have to be sorry because they aren't supposed to have feelings.

It strikes me I should have linked to the Commander, but this comic about says the lot:

I certainly don't believe this is a universal trait among men, but yes, there is a component of all men that feel this way and it should be addressed. Some cultures have it more than others - the US is hardly the worst, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be prioritized.

Though IMO 'being an asshole' is less of an issue than 'it breaks some men and they kill themselves and often others' should be the focus. But as you said, part and parcel of the same issue.

The vast majority of gender issues that need to be addressed IMO are ones that are needed to help women, probably 9 out of 10 of the most important ones. A personal outrage is the fact that so many police precincts just don't process rape kits.

But the male suicide rate being so high is definitely one of them, and easiest to define in terms of harm it causes. Others aren't quite so obvious about the trail of dead bodies.

No, it's not a universal trait. I am speaking at a very broad level here.

Yes, women need to be heard and taken seriously. Rape kits need to be processed.

But, more importantly, we need to stop teaching

• boys to not cry,
• if a girl says no, keep asking her,
• if a boy asks you to dance, be polite and dance with him,
• sex is a woman's "marital duty"
• don't let other boys push you around, stand up for yourself and fight!

Someone pointed out after the England match last night that men are apparently perfectly fine with crying when their team lost a fucking sports game.

Meanwhile, we have an ad for a video calling setup in the UK where two guys are talking about one of the pair's GF miscarrying and they have the same bland tone of voice you'd expect if they were discussing bus timetables. I expect the producers were going for the "emotionally numb" act but it really does just come off as "guys don't show pain".

Who hasn't done that

Me, for one.

I've never met her.

He's a disappointment politically, but I can't disagree that he's been a good husband and father.

Partial credit. He works too hard to remain friends with bad people, and it took him too long to stop being handsy with everyone (I have churchy friends of all ages like that), but I do get the impression he's sincerely trying.

He had some ethical lapses where he gave into the shittier impulses of his party because he wanted to be president or hold onto his senate seat, but overall you could tell he was trying to be a good man. And the wartime stuff is legendary.

Eh... I can't see him.

Yup

Yup, a little too Christiany for my tastes, but yup.

Horrible vanity naming of his kids aside, yup.

Maybe?

Yup

I love how one day everyones perception of Keanu Reeves shifted from "literally Ted" to "living saint."

Yup

I think I'd put Prince Harry on the list, walking away from a guaranteed life of luxury and family obligations you've had drilled into you from birth can't be easy, but he did it for the sake of his wife and kid. (I still can't believe the guy that wore a Nazi uniform turned out to be the good one.)

I've seen people online suggest Trevor Noah. I gave up on the Daily Show years ago, but his autobiography was excellent and surprisingly insightful.

How about Johnny Cash?

At one point he was a drug addict who cheated on his first wife.

He got his shit together eventually, but I don't know if he belongs on a list like this.

I think if you turn yourself around, you deserve a second chance. From what I can tell, he gave a lot of people their start. I’m not sure how much charity work he did, but he definitely stood up against Vietnam and by all accounts, was a pretty stand up guy.

The only man I never met that I gave two shits about was Anthony Bourdain

World needs more guys like that

Those are all fine

That's not

He's one of the the three famous people I really wish I could've met before he died. The others being Gordon Parks and Neil Peart.

His cheese is fucking horrible though.

Yeah, his parents fucked him up really badly, assuming Walk The Line was even mostly accurate. There's a lot of men that had horrible childhoods and never got better, so I'd give Johnny partial credit.

I'm assuming you're referring to the movie with Joaquin Phoenix because the song has nothing to do with his childhood.

Never saw the movie. Can you tell us what happened in the movie to explain your statement?

In the spirit of my "role models can come from sci-fi" posts - Jeff Tracy and his sons from Thunderbirds and its various revivals. Billionaire astronaut - first man on Mars as of Thunderbirds Are Go (originally one of the early lunar astronauts) - and uses his vast wealth to create incredibly advanced submarines, aircraft and spaceships (all of which put the military to shame) to... rescue people in catastrophes.

Kurt Cobain
Scott Weiland
Layne Staley
Chris Cornell
Chester Bennington

The title of the movie is Walk the Line, same as the song.

Do you even know how to fucking read? Shut the fuck up and go away.

Jesus.

The man depicted in the Bible is a man of compassion, one who openly cries when he is in pain, who tells people to love one another, engages in acts of charity, and defies the status quo when it seeks to oppress others, who entreats people to put away their swords, to forgive quickly, to not judge others without being aware of our own faults, who embraces women as equals, a man who freely expresses joy and who, by biblical accounts anyway, put himself in harm's way to protect his friends. Seems like an excellent example of positive masculinity to me.

Yup. He doesn't exist.

Granted, these are all good men (and a Transformer--random). But what's the difference between being a good human and being a good man? What is specifically masculine about these people?

Dude cursed a fig tree for just doing it's job.

Do you?

Well, they are men, according to their biographies or the source material. I find that whenever someone attempts to discuss or critique toxic masculinity, invariably someone will claim what they're actually opposed to is all masculinity, or that disapproving of toxic masculinity means they disapprove of all straight cisgender males by default. Citing these examples of positive masculinity shows that's not the case.

It's also a handy reference for dudes that want to escape patterns of toxic masculinity, but who can't imagine what that actually looks like in practice. I've seen enough toxic dudes that are terrified of looking "weak" or "faggy." No one would mistake Captain Pike for weak, and no one would suggest Gomez is anything but straight and deeply attracted to his wife.