Dont pay for fire service, watch your house burn

Aren't there mutual aid agreements, as well as agreements under which governments outside the municipality compensate the municipality for services rendered in their territory?

I live in a rural county with one 23,000-person city in the center and several smaller population centers scattered around, most of which, if they do have their own police departments, don't have 24-hour staffing. If there's a 911 call from a small city on the south side of the county, it's not unheard-of for a city unit from the major population center to respond to it if the on-duty county units happen to be, say, on the north and east ends of the county and therefore further away.

Where I live (rural area), we have a police department with two cars and about 6 officers (not counting staff for the station). Our entire fire department and it's two trucks were in our local parade last week. So that everyone is covered, however, we have an agreement with 3 local cities that overlap, and they all kind of share each jurisdiction. This means everyone in a 10 mile radius is covered by police and fire, and they all answer each other's calls depending upon location and availability. It seems to work pretty well.

Yeah, around here, any fire of any size is likely to have at least two jurisdictions responding.

I live in a village in AZ. The police in my state have no jurisdiction laws.

Yep. A law enforcement officer in Arizona is a law enforcement officer in ALL of Arizona.

Fire coverage though does have jurisdiction. We're covered by Phoenix. Unincorporated parts of Maricopa County are covered by individual subscriptions with Rural Metro Fire Department. They also won't come out if you haven't paid.

I, of course, thought of the same song UA did, way back on page 2 or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKhN0gh0kjY

Define "Mutual Aid." By and large, no. But, on certain occasions, yes. Six months ago, we had a police funeral. The Sheriff's Department took over my PJ and answered calls in my coverage area so our entire department (specifically those people working that day) could attend the funeral.

If a Sheriff's Deputy keys up his radio and screams 10-00 (Shots fired, officer down, please help me, I'm bleeding to death), yes, I'm going to send officers to the scene regardless of where it is at. But, you've got to understand and every officer in Alabama does understand that a 10-00 is a terrible and powerful thing that will call down thousands of angry armed men that will descend upon the heads of those who caused it.

In that case, I'm going to do what I have to do because he'd do the same for me.

That's the Thin Blue Line people talk about.

But, if a Sheriff's Deputy calls out 10-48 (Hey, I really need some help out here.) Well, that's on the SO. Chances are, I've already got my own calls stacked up my ass and halfway down yours.

Negative, at least not here. I fully admit and acknowledge that I am not the be-all-end-all of knowledge.

It depends on a number of variable factors. Lets talk in general specifics.

Here, Municipal Fire Department A always backs up Volunteer Fire Department B because VFD B is a bunch of fucktards that don't know their ass from a hole in the wall. However, MFD A never backs up VFD C because VFD C has their shit together and they don't need MFD A.

But, with that said, fuck a fireman. I'm Po-lease. I hate firemen.

Don't mistake jurisdiction for power. My Power of Arrest is granted by and through the State of Alabama, not the County or City for which I work. No matter where I'm at within the borders of this state, I am a Peace Officer per the definitions in Title 36, Chapter 21 of the Code of Alabama. I can exercise the duties of my office and my power of arrest anywhere in this State at any time.

My jurisdiction is just a geographical label for the particular area of which I'm personally responsible. Instead of jurisdiction, the proper and technical label we use is "Law Enforcement Coverage Area." But, in public, and especially on WF, it's easier to just say "jurisdiction."

Re: Dont pay for fire service, watch your hosue burn

Oh i know THAT - the allowance was that I'm supposing that you might disagree with WHICH services the government thinks it needs to render that it in turn expects you to pay for.

don't know that it is, other than the fact that it gives the homeowner the liberty to fuck up. But then, there's something to be said for more liberty.

I suspect that one factor in play here is that living in an unincorporated area is, for me, a specific decision having to do with avoiding certain taxes - a purpose which would be defeated if the local authorities found a way to levy the same taxes as in the city.

If anything makes this "kewler" it's that the payment or not, is optional, and that non-payment carries with it direct personal consequence - kinda like driving without collision insurance on your car.

I can't afford that insurance so I don't have it - if I have an at fault wreck, or am hit by an uninsured driver, I'm fucked. It's a chance i take every time i crank the thing. Can't see a lot of difference in that gamble and the one this guy took.

As i said above, if the policy doesn't make provision for that (either the FD acts to put out a fire at a rental property, or the local ordinance disallows renting if the fee isn't paid) then that's a serious oversight.

but the fact that there are potential amendments which cover such eventualities indicates to me that the potential weakness isn't fatal.

Why?

I'd be very surprised if an insurance carrier would cover a commercial property without it being demonstrated that the property enjoyed fire protection. If so, the extra premium would well exceed the $75

all of which were addressed.

I'm sure trained firefighters have some conception of how those things work and what needs doing to prevent that.

I really don't think Obion County is even aware of Wordforge...

Re: Dont pay for fire service, watch your hosue burn

Speaking only for MYself, i think the situation sucks ass for the family in question.

Just as it would most assuredly suck ass if i wreck my car tomorrow and have ZERO means to replace it. but that doesn't mean I'm gonna bitch at the insurance man for not gifting me full collision coverage on my vehicle.

not really his fault.

Car Insurance is not a public good. If your car gets in an accident and your car is totaled, it doesn't run a risk of everyone's car in your neighborhood suddenly getting totaled.

Fire on the other hand.

The main reasons for doing it via property taxes is that 1) everyone is covered and they're covered for less in a per unit cost basis (each person pays less but more people are in the pool so each person pays less) 2) funding is more stable because everyone always has to pay in to get coverage 3) since everyone has to pay in there is no free rider problem 4) it's very simple and easy plus you don't have the problem of firemen letting someone's house burn down or risk that fire getting out of control and thus costing huge amounts of money because a small fire turned into a large fire 5) fire service is like police service in that it is an essential government service which everyone should expect in exchange for paying their property taxes (or rent which is used to pay property taxes).

It's just an all around win.

Republicans shut down the state government and then you blame "communists" and pretend like blocking the state budget and shutting down the state government (a political problem) = the state being broke. Nice. Absolutely mental and factually incorrect but nice.

Re: Dont pay for fire service, watch your hosue burn

It's been known to happen.

Just sayn'

But you don't seem to understand human nature. There are five Law Enforcement agencies, roughly 20 municipal and volunteer Fire Departments, and four Ambulance/EMS companies in my little county.

Each one is headed by a Chief that is a huge fish in a very little pond. None of the Chiefs want to give up their own little Kingdoms*. On top of that, no City Councilman wants to hand over their power to the County writ-large.

So, yeah, good luck with that. Your valiant efforts and talk wouldn't make it past their secretaries.

* - The idea of a "Metro" Police Department incorporating all of the LE agencies in the county was floated to the County Commission by a 30+ year veteran Captain at the SO. He was fired by the Sheriff the next day.

Re: Dont pay for fire service, watch your hosue burn

We're in that boat, too...but double check your policy...many liability policies do have an uninsured driver clause that will pay you if you are hit by an uninsured or underinsured driver. Ours does.

you can.

The law requires liability - collision is optional.

Re: Dont pay for fire service, watch your hosue burn

I have that - but because i chose to include it, it's not automatic.

It's only a few dollars extra.

And?

the fire department acted for the protection of the covered property so what's your point?

Re: Dont pay for fire service, watch your hosue burn

1) If he had reported that someone was trapped, they would have been obliged to respond and perform rescue.

Once the house was cleared, though, no further firefighting, since he hadn't paid.

2) The dispatcher apparently DID offer him the non-subscriber response rate of $1200 or so. Not sure if that's the correct figure, but it was offered and he refused.

3) He's likely to face criminal charges over the garbage burning, since our area is under No Burn orders from the state due to the weather. This may cost him the insurance payout on the trailer.

Local press interviewers indicate that no, they had no problem with this. This guy was a known dumbfuck who was burning illegally in the first place, waited until a potentially major brushfire actually was burning his house to call them in(Fines for illegal burns are substantial here in West TN...) and the building was a doublewide trailer.

Firefighters don't like wasting time and water on mobile homes, the outcome is pretty much guaranteed.

I'm guessing they have to provide rescue if someone is trapped, like here in TN.

Letting a fire go can be very risky and its not uncommon for fires to spread beyond the ability of firefighters to put them out.

To me there are a few things that no matter what, the government exists to provide, these are:

Fire
Police
National Defense

If the government is not protecting your property or your life then you should not be obligated to pay taxes to it. On the flip side if you are paying any sort of taxes it should be expected that the government will provide these services.

Gee, you'd think the firemen on the ground could make that assessment better than armchair fire marshalls on the internet.

You'd think so wouldn't you? But the unfortunate thing is that weather conditions change and they're not so kind as to give a heads up notice.

Nice to see you have a handle on the details of the situation.

And water.

Government should provide water.

I don't whine. I find it amusing that people are so afraid their opinions will be responded, that they only post them in the rep box where someone can't respond to it.

As far as where I got those figures, I googled "average salary for firefighters" and clicked on the most reliable looking link.

It's nothing personal. I wasn't intending to slight anyone. It wasn't even supposed to be anything more than a very rough estimate of start up costs for a firestation.