SCOTUS rules on AZ immigration law, and no one here says a word? WTF!

No English, no identification. The fact that European illegals are routinely caught and deported despite being white probably escaped your notice. Not that there aren't volumes that escape your notice.

 

I drop by every few months, and see the same conversations over and over again.

 

It'll be another court battle before it's determined what "reasonable suspicion" might mean in this context.

I would say that asking for ID and not getting it is not and should not be considered enough basis in many cases to reasonably suspect someone of being an illegal immigrant, even in conjunction with not speaking or appearing to understand English. I'm guessing that there's a number of folks here on WF and elsewhere who would refuse to give officers their ID if they thought they could get away with it.

Also, there is undoubtedly a substantial illegal immigrant population that speaks English well or well enough, and there's a substantial legal immigrant population that doesn't speak English well, or at all.

As for Europe's success in uncovering illegal immigrants, I'm guessing the nature of the problem there is fundamentally different than the problem here. But by all means, if they have a better handle on it than we do, we should import some of their tactics. I don't know if they have had to resort to anything like the AZ immigration law, but you tell me.

 

There is. Here, cops can ask you for proof of identity and, if you don't have it, either have you give a "verbal identity" (you just tell them who you are and where you live; I've had it happen to me) or, if they have reason to suspect you of something, detain you until you can furnish it. Furthermore, there is no European law that prevents the individual states of the EU from enforcing illegal immigration laws.

So the "fundamentally different nature" of the situation here is basically those exact same provisions that are being refused in the US.

 

"Resort" to it? As far as I'm aware, their immigration laws are tougher than ours across the board. The United States is the easiest country in the world to immigrate to legally. The easiest. Why are so many Mexicans turned away from immigrating legally? Because between 12 and 20+ million of them are already here illegally. If I invite you and a few friends of yours to my place and 500 people show up dropping your name, nobody else you know is invited. That's not unreasonable and it's not bigotry.

Back to how other countries deal with illegal immigrants, and to make it even-handed (though you might not like that), we'll talk about how illegal immigrants into Mexico make out.

72 Ecuadorian illegals gunned down.

Was that the Mexican government's doing? Technically, it was a drug cartel. But with the Mexican government unable (and this is just my opinion, but I personally suspect a sizable percentage of the Mexican government has been bought by the cartels and is therefore unwilling) to put an end to the cartels, it might as well have been.

To your points about detecting illegals -- true, false positives will happen. False negatives will probably also happen. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be investigated, any more than the idea that we should expect all crime to no longer be investigated just because not everybody gets caught every time and occasionally someone's asked an inconvenient question.

 

Not being able to understand any English whatsoever is more than likely what makes folks think someone is not a citizen and probably has travel papers of some sort.

 

Because the second sentence is true, the first sentence does not apply to all European countries generally. I'm guessing you're speaking about France; it wouldn't be exactly true for Germany, and so forth.

Germany's courts are deciding what counts as 'first suspicion' for illegal immigration right now -- not triggered by a law, but on a case basis. This is still moving up through the various court levels; right now, a combination of two local rulings would mean that while a cop can ask for your identification because you look foreign, you're allowed to call his actions racist and compare them to Nazi Germany in return.

However, what makes the basic situation different IMO is that most European countries use governmentally issued IDs all the time and for many purposes; a citizen can usually be expected to carry identification and might need it for any number of reasons. I get the impression that many Americans don't want to head there.

 

Are there national IDs in most European countries, and are those IDs free? Are people required by law or expected by custom to have those IDs with them when in public?

If so, that would be a big difference between the U.S. and there.

Also, I don't know if most (or any) European countries have equivalents to the 1st Amendment right to speech, the 5th Amendment right to be free from self-incrimination or such.

I think there's a legitimate argument that those rights in the U.S. would make it OK for someone asked to show their IDs to say nothing in response and to provide no ID. I don't know if there's case law in other context saying one way or another, and it would still be an open question of how it would apply in this type of case even if there were.

 

EDIT: Oops! Wrong thread.

 

In France there are and yes, they're free. Not being French, however, I do not and cannot have one. I have to have the French equivalent of a "Green card," which is far from free.

Again, I can speak only for France, but there is no law requiring you to have proof of ID on you (except if you are driving, for example, which means you have to have your driver's licence with you).

France guarantees the right to free speech. Very recently, France introduced laws that mean you don't have to incriminate yourself. But it is a law, not a constitutional guarantee. (And it is interesting that it was introduced by a right-leaning parliament, not by the various socialist governments the have been around in the past.)

Nevertheless, as a foreigner (I speak with enough of an accent that almost anyone can tell I'm not French, though they can't tell what country I'm from if they don't already know it), if there is any reason to suspect I am in the country illegally, cops have the right to require me to get ID. They can detain me and go with me to get it, for example, or keep me until someone brings it.

It is also worth noting that there isn't even a term in French for "profiling." It's simply not a thing the French are preoccupied with. Cops are very much allowed to check those people who correspond most clearly to the risky groups. It is very rare for me to be looked at twice by a cop, for example (unless I'm doing something suspicious), because I am white. A black street vendor is going to have cops ask for his license much more often than a white vendor -- unless the white vendor looks like a gypsy or something.