http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-the-nation-state.html?_r=0 How realistic do you think such a scenario is and would it be an improvement?
I don't think humanity is mature enough to exist as a group of semi-autonomous self-organizing collectives. We still need a hierarchical social order.
You could still have some of that with the Supra-National Organizations. So the Basque Country and Wallonia can declare independence but as long as both are EU does anything really change except the extent of local control over local issues?
So the commie not only wants everyone crammed into the city but he wants a world government? We've got to get off this planet. Leave him and his ilk behind.
Such hierarchy can exist with devolution. Look at Singapore, a post-national, yet strongly hierarchical society. I am not sure this will happen as quickly as 2030, but I do expect we will see an eventual withering of the state, to use a Marxian line without being a Marxist.
Very interesting, and in general I think it's a positive trend. The nation state system is out of date and there are all sorts of situations where sovereignty needs to be shared, devolved, internationalised and so forth. I don't see states "going away" but like the article says, they will become more flexible and less absolute.
The purpose of the semi-autonomous self-organizing collectives is to resist the imposition of a hierarchical social order.
And what I'm saying is that with human nature being what it is, you have to have some kind of hierarchy or you wind up with chaos.
No. Of course you're not right. Unwrap the leather jacket from your throat and get some oxygen to your brain. No one in their right mind wants FDR's America.
I actually would like to see the US expand into a hemispheric Supra National Organization. We're of course decades away from that but I can see increased local and state cooperation pushing the Feds out of that sphere. For instance when the Feds weren't raising fuel standards enough you saw a pact of blue states (with large populations) band together to pass strict state standards which considering their market size created a new de facto national standard. I don't know much about it but Aenea has talked about the common core state standards which is being done through the National Governors Association, NOT the Department of Education. I'd like to see states band together on creating uniform market rules for marijuana. The Feds have essentially abdicated this role so it is a great opportunity for state experimentation and cooperation.
There is also a similar problem in the other direction. Sometimes local boundaries get in the way of regional action. Anywhere that a large city is close to a state border, you'll see sections of the metro area in multiple states. Chicago is functionally in two states, New York, Boston, and Philly are in three states, etc. Unified planning around things likes roads, water use, and other infrastructure is a nightmare. The Feds aren't strong enough to exert control, and the states often prefer not to cooperate. These places would be better off not having to navigate such artificial impediments.
fine 1956 so you can be in the Ike years. Why this fixation of me being choked by leather? You getting freeky?
They gots them a new meme. They're gonna use it as an excuse to avoid actual discussion. Pretty soon their side's entire contribution to this board will be nothing but memes. Someone should collect them into an instruction manual for new members...
And then there's San Diego/Tijuana. One metro, split by an international border. Talk about a clusterfuck.
That's actually a bit of a special case, though. Those states were under pressure from the EPA to clean up their air, and since the oil companies were focusing their lobbying efforts at the national level, it got passed (and then was adopted at the Federal level). Those states also had support in the effort from the car companies, who had been trying to get the Feds to force the oil companies to pull the sulfur out gas and diesel, but were blocked by the lobbying efforts of the oil companies. (Removing the sulfur from the fuels made it easier to clean up emissions.)
And yet when I say that we should turn Detroit into a separate city state, ala Singapore, people roll their eyes.
I had a response about places getting independence before their economy, government or society is ready, but the only examples I can think of are former African or Afro-Carib colonies... :flow2:
Lots of lofty ideals in this thread but no mention of the two most glaring examples of the ineffectual nature of the supra-national: the EU and UN. The former in its 18th year of not having had its accounts signed off by auditors.
True, but I think this discussion has mostly focused on the opposite concept -- the withering of the state in favor of devolved power centers.
