Another post on race and prejudice!

More specifically, the human race.

It is hard to tell exactly what happened.

First off, I have some experience on the train. I hate the airlines. I love flying, I just hate the airlines and passenger planes. So I do the train thing. There is a difference on the train compared to the plane. There are a lot of black travelers who use the train, and a lot of them are more cultural. Everyone on the train is less uptight and expected to deal with others for long periods. It is one of the things I like about it, but you are going to deal with a louder more boisterous and different people. Plane travelers, except for some rare problem children, are quieter and more reserved. It just happens blacks are more prevelant on the train, but you also get a lot more european white people who make more of their journey and are also louder. Part of the thing about the train is you can get drunk and be more active about the car than you can in a bus. And train companies and tour groups know this. I cannot say for sure with this tour train, but when the amtrack people start having to tell you things they start like a mom, and will go to loudly calling out a person for going over the top. My first trip on the train some asshole made a mess in one of the bathrooms and the announcement told people not to be slobs because we all needed to have restrooms and they would be closing them down if they kept making a mess like animals. I was happy to hear a CS person just tell it like it is and shame the hell out of the jerk. Still, the amtrack people are nice to the stumbling drunks, and they have had to deal with over the top people, but those people are over the top.

This could be a matter of black people having a lower threshold for being loud, but 11 people who are buying the products of the trip is a big number to toss off just because they were loud and bothering a couple of uptight people. My thought is that given the desire for profits and the bad reputation that could cause black people to stop coming on your tour in an area with more black people with money and black tourism these people were over the top. This is on a wine train, and the people there are often planning on being happily drunk no matter what race they are. Some people do not do it well, and I have seen it. When you are toasted you get louder and you fall over. You bump into people, and some people are rude when they are the clumsy ones. That is not a black thing. That is a drunk thing. I do not go into straight bars much anymore because of the loud white male drunk. It is not all of them, but we all know the guy looking for a fight who gets all testy to the unfortunate people next to him. I do not like it, and it is distasteful and I am well tempted to put that guy face first into the floor with a little trip. I do not want to be that way when drinking so I do not bother.

There are some black people, not all but enough, who do play the race card when they are trying to get more. It works, just like it works for white people to play the I have money card when they want to get more. It is just what culturally intimidates the customer service people. I do nopt know if these black people were like that, but statistically out of 11 of them there is probably a couple, just like if I went out with 11 white people there would be a couple of loudmouthed asses that would get me to face palm, but I would be associated with them if they got into trouble. Still, everyone lies to make themselves seem in the right in these cases, and drunk lousd people are notorious for it no matter what race. I have big doubts that this is a racial issue and would need to see other complaints regarding the same issue or some video of the incident to really decide. That is not about race, but rather that I would doubt anyone including my good friends if the story started out drunk on a wine train. They better have some more proof.

There is, in many places, a lower threshold for boisterous black people by whites and management. That is just a fact of life. Some of it is due to a cultural, not racial, tendency by blacks to be louder in their celebration than whites. Some of that is due to the reality that poor people celebrate more loudly and have a more fuck you mentality towards the rules of the richer people. As blacks become more located in the upper middle to upper classes they have to play by the rules of those classes and that is normally quieter and more reserved. That is something we all face if we move into higher money making areas, but due to industrialized prejudice black people face it far more than white people, have lower thresholds, and remains associates with their poorer members because they have been forced to remain in those circles. It was much easier for my white parents to dump their louder poorer white friends as they moved up the social ladder than it seems to be for black people.

I think what Tererun is referring to is the code switch....black folks that "talk white" for work and throw the lingo around with their friends afterwards. To that, I say: cool. Slang in the workplace, particularly in high viability like business, will end your career quick, and that includes Cotton eyed Joe from the Appalachia mountain range as well. There's a reason all national news reporters have the same accent, regardless from where they hail from in the US.

I normally would not agree with Gturner, but I have to say it is a bit more likely. You are on a wine train, and they make their money on wine drinkers. You do not toss 11 customers off the train unless they are needing to be tossed out. We know drunk people need to be tossed out. It is hard for me to think a wine train in california that probably deals with a large share of black customers was getting all snooty and not giving them a chance. My thought is they were drunk and got all irritated for being told to stop being rowdy as I have seen many drunks do. You get tossed much faster if you are all fuck you about it instead of being apologetic. If this was on the Alabama wine trail I would go more for a racial thing.

I would even go so far as to say the black people were probably handled nicer and given more of a chance simply for the CS nightmare that is being accused of being racist in an area where that could very negatively effect your business like a mixed area of middle to upper class californians. I do not know, but I figure since the money was refunded without apology I am pretty much figuring they do not want these customers feeling invited back while making it known that they are willing to refund the money for them being tossed off. It is what I would expect to happen to a bunch of rowdy white people who had to be tossed off and never invited back. Go, here is your money, and do not come back. Instead of we are sorry for the behavior of our staff, here is a coupan and your money back, please do come back and see our better performance.

That wall is there for white people also. Once you get out of school and get into a career job you get rid of your cursing, you stop wearing T-shirts to work, you stop screwing around to all hours with your friends, and you start using manners. You can tell the white people in the office who have not gotten professional yet. They may be fun people, but you want to distinguish yourself from them. I hate when it is referred to as acting white. I have to remind myself to act professionally when I go into an upscale office, and it does lessen the trash talk outside of the office because it is better to not curse in front of your friends than it is to curse in the wrong place at work. That can extend to slang and your actions also. Naming it white behavior had the effect of turning black people off to it. Lots of people want to be a part of the professional world, but I understand black people do not want to be forced to be white people to get along. Meanwhile we all have to do it, and I think it just harms black people to call it being white when none of us wants to walk around with the stick up our asses hoping our bosses see us as professionals rather than goof offs.

I am not sure if that attitude was propagated by whites or blacks, but I see a lot of evidence that white people wanted blacks to be Jive from way back because it fed into black anger and separated them from becoming professional. It put pride in being poor instead of pride being black. It definitally is how whites labelled everything "black" as being ghetto despite the reality some of those urban styles were slick and upscale. A 300 dollar pair of sneakers were certainly well made and you could find some that went along with suits. Lots of those sneakers became dress shoes because you are not going to tromp around in the dirt with 300 dollar shoes on your feet. It was also stupid because I was wearing black timberlands to work as dress shoes before they became urban. Then all of a sudden they were black people's shoes and people were told they did not count as dress shoes. I had already swapped to cheaper black boots because Timberlands took a dive in quality around that time. Every monday I had to clean off my boots because i wore them outside, but my bosses never complained as long as they did not have a brand name associated with urban apparel. I knmow all of this because I avoid men's dress shoes like the fucking plague for being boring and slippery. I look at urban wear and it is like women's clothing. It is all nice and shiny, and if you get a mark on it you have to go wash it. There are heterosexual black guys who wear more expensive and wimpy clothing than women do. Do not stray up to me in your 1000 dollar urban outfit and pretend you got an attitude because I am going to hit you like a woman first and scuff those sneakers of yours, and rip that basketball jersey. Elton John is less of a diva than some of these urban guys, so that is dressing up to me. They have their shit more in place than guys wearing armani suits.

recently we just saw it with Dr. Dre. He had to apologize and look more professional for his earlier work because it would interfere with his movies and deals with people like Apple. The fact that he used to be (I hate to use this word) thuggish because it sold records and his image was that guy who was manly and tough and from the streets. I am sure some of the people who told him to be mysogenistic in the past were the same ones who saidi to him it was a good time to apologize. I also think he has come along into a better place where he is still Dr. Dre and does not have to hammer out a home for that identity. He can be more professional, and I think he has come to a more respectful point where he sees he can still be himself and he owns the room so he can let some of the puffing up go. Unlike some critical of him I actually think he was sincere in his apology having changed over time, and it was a good time to make a definitive statement about it even though some might see it as being something he just said to get contracts. I do not fully know because i am not his friend, ut it seems his music has taken a less edgy rough approach and become more smooth and polished and appealing to a much broader base.

I agree with that, hence the use of quotation marks around "talk white."

Personally, I've always had a good grasp on grammar, so I've always spoken proper EEnglish growing up. I probably use far more slang now with being in the military than I did as a teenager.

Oh, dear lord. Please tell me that was in your younger broke years.

My honest guess is the company didn't authorize it and some employee wanted to vent about what jerk the customers were.

On a different note The French Laundry is located right next to the creek in Yountville and it has been repeatedly ranked as the best French restaurant in the world. Not bad for a little town in the bay area.

Bring your Amex card because you don't want to hit your limit while there (and the prices will test your credit limit) but the food is spectacular.

http://www.thomaskeller.com/tfl

I think it would benefit the black community if they used professional talk instead of talking white or black. Blacks have a slightly different professional talk also (me being very sensitive to it) so why make it racial. Please do not think I am bitching at you because you understand the difference. I am just spouting the general societal you. That here is an example of how we need to make a different way of describing it because language is a very basic part of our psychology and when you define things apart over and over again it gets into your head that it is a racial thing. That is why it cannot be white talk when you say it because it psychologically separates blacks out of the conversation at it's base level. And you cannot let it become something like jive or ebonics because that is just another way to separate us.

When you get something like jive talk it becomes that is the way they talk and some of my group who are are as astute and a broken hammer are not able to understand what is being talked about. I think we are getting to the point in this world where we need a common language. Since the black community is so diverse in it's heritage it might do good for them to be a catalyst in making it. That is a really grand idea that I have no clue how to make happen.

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Yeah, how tedious for you. People should just stop complaining about racism to alleviate all that hardship placed on you from hearing about it.

From the article it says they're group included an 84 year old woman, I highly doubt they were behaving like drunken frat boys. I've had a few experiences in snooty, rich places typically reserved for white people and in places like that simply being heard will get you described as loud and obnoxious. They might begrudgingly let you in, but they don't want to hear you and they definitely don't want to see you having a good time. And that isn't to say they wouldn't kick out white people they see as lower class as well. One doesn't have to choose between being elitist or racist, you can be both and among snooty, rich, white people I typically find that to be the case. Also calling it a cultural difference is a fucking cop out. Indians liking spicier food compared to white is a cultural difference. Looking down on people because they don't enjoy themselves in the same way you do is being a busy bodied, elitist/racist dipshit.

No one read your post.

I get a sense that lots of people at wordforge look down on me for enjoying space battles in Star Trek.

Does that make them elitist and racist?

No, it just makes you a simpleton.

Unless you can explain the link between space battles and racism.

Elitist, perhaps. But if applied equally to all races--and there's no evidence in this case that it isn't--then it's not racist. Different establishments expect different etiquette. You don't act the same way in church that you do at a baseball game.

If you imagine that the group in question should be given more leeway on their obnoxious behavior because black people supposedly have a higher threshold for what qualifies as boisterous, then that's racist.

Explain what? You've royally fucked up the quote function yet again (a bit like a simpleton would) so I'm not sure which part of the post you're questioning.

Never said there was any evidence. I just said given my experience with stuffy, rich, white, establishments and the fact that they had an 85 year old woman with them I tend to believe the claim of racism over the one of them being rowdy.

Depends on the church.

Never said that either fucktard. The idea that two groups of people could be doing the same thing yet their actions perceived differently due to nothing else but the color of their skin is not a new concept. It's on the same level of thinking a group of white kids hanging out on the street corner are just a bunch of kids, but a group of black kids doing the same are described as thugs up to no good. I think I also remember Dave Chappelle doing a skit where a black guy walks into a store and it's simply asking about the merchandise and the owners think that he's there to rob the place. It's not uncommon as a minority to experience this phenomenon.

No. Looking down on you is simply a natural progression of your pathetic existence.

Well, shit. I bow to your omniscience, then.

I gave my opinion. You're free to feel differently. If you want to believe 84 year old grandma needed to be removed for getting to loose, as ridiculous as that sounds, then by all means do so.

So are quote tags.

Score one for the Wine Train:

“We Were 100% in the Wrong,” Napa Wine Train Executive Says


NAPA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The top executive of the Napa Valley Wine Train contacted a predominately African-American women’s book club and apologized for the removal of 11 of its members from one of its trains after several passengers complained the group’s loudness was negatively impacting their experience.

“The Napa Valley Wine Train was 100 percent wrong in its handling of this issue,” said wine train chief executive officer Anthony “Tony” Giaccio. “We accept full responsibility for our failures and for the chain of events that led to this regrettable treatment of our guests.”

Giaccio said he had a conversation with Lisa Johnson, a leader of the Sistahs on the Reading Edge Book Club, who complained on social media about the removal of 11 book club members from the wine train on Saturday, Aug. 22, after other train passengers complained about the loudness of the group.

Giaccio said he contacted Ms. Johnson late Monday, Aug. 24, and apologized for the book club’s experience, pledging to learn from the incident and offering additional diversity training for employees and inviting the club members, their family and friends to be his guest and fill an entire train car.

Giaccio wrote an apology letter to the club saying: “I want to apologize for your experience on the Napa Valley Wine Train on Saturday, Aug. 22. We accept full responsibility for our failures and the entire chain of unfortunate events you experienced.”

The letter to the group continued:

“Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group.

“We were insensitive when we asked you to depart our train by marching you down the aisle past all the other passengers. While that was the safest route for disembarking, it showed a lack of sensitivity on our part that I did not fully conceive of until you explained the humiliation of the experience and how it impacted you and your fellow Book Club members.

“We also erred by placing an inaccurate post on our Facebook site that was not reflective of what actually occurred. In the haste to respond to criticism and news inquires, we made a bad situation worse by rushing to answer questions on social media. We quickly removed the inaccurate post, but the harm was done by our erroneous post.

“In summary, we were acutely insensitive to you and the members of the Book Club. Please accept my apologies for our many mistakes and failures. We pride ourselves on our hospitality and our desire to please our guests on the Napa Valley Wine Train. In this instance, we failed in every measure of the meaning of good service, respect and hospitality.

“I appreciate your recommendation that our staff, which I believe to be among the best, could use additional cultural diversity and sensitivity training. I pledge to make sure that occurs and I plan to participate myself.

“As I offered in my conversation with you today, please accept my personal apologies for your experience and the experience of the Book Club members. I would like to invite you and other members to return plus 39 other guests (you can fill an entire car of 50) as my personal guests in a reserved car where you can enjoy yourselves as loudly as you desire.

“I want to conclude again by offering my apologies for your terrible experience.”
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That's how you handle this situation from a P.R. point of view.

It might be appropriate for them to consider Amtrak's policy regarding noise levels. The train from Boston to New York has designated quiet cars. The wine train might try something similar, with designated party cars for larger groups with other cars designated for romantic couples, etc. That would no doubt have eliminated the problem from the start.

Noise problem? Not quite getting where you are coming from here.

Ahhh, India.

Great people! When they are your doctor. Or running your local motel. When they are calling you on the phone claiming their name is "Harold" and telling you they are from the US Grants Department and you are entitled to 5,000 dollars if you just give them your bank account number ? Not so much!

When I was in India, I went to catch a train from New Delhi to Agra and the ticket agent just looked at me and said "Sir, these trains are not for you." I asked "What do you mean?" "They are not for you."

I walked away indignant, thinking I'd been discriminated against. Then I realized I was trying to board one of these trains the locals use, like in your picture. Remember, kids, just because you can find an Indian train schedule on the Internet, that the trains may not be suitable for you.

I wound up hiring a car and driver.