Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian Su-24

I'm tired of people constantly telling me I'm a Russian fanboy because I'm a Communist. It's been going on since I was a little boy. Russia and even the Soviet Union has not been a socialist country since half a century.

Oh and another most glaring thing about that review is that it "forgets" one huge advantage of the S-300/400 systems namely its setup/teardown time. The S-<x> sets up and tears down in five minutes. The Patriot systems take 45 minutes to one hour.

WWIII has already started.

We are just in the opening phase. Countries are slowly moving pieces into place. It's just a matter of that one trigger being pulled, like the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, to get the big shooting started.

But yes let's hold off the nukes until after I see Star Wars.

You're a communist! An Imperial one at that!

So, what are we discussing? Russia vs. Turkey, right? WWW3, probably? Ah, how Russia will not send missiles to Syria? Just heard on the news that is exactly what they're doing. Also still discussing whether or not Russia 'did it'? Fly over Turkey? Of course they did. Maybe not this week, I don't know, wasn't there, but the Russians invade NATO's airspace dozens of times every year. With an increase in 2014 (and probably this year too, I imagine) - I remember an article from October last year that said NATO intercepted Russians planes over 100 times that year, so far (which was about 3 times as much as in 2013). Often enough they have not activated their transponders, no flight plans, no radio contact.. So this would not be a surprise..

Don't be hasty with the WW3 talk. We're in an era where even war and peace are decided by who profits how much in financial terms. A huge, all out world war means profits to no one. But keep the pot hot juuuuust below the boiling point and the billions are gonna flow.

No one, really not one single leader of consequence, is willing to get into a large scale war. Doesn't matter how much the pot is stirred, it won't happen. Not over Syria at least. To get NATO and Russia really go at its others throats, one must directly attack the other. Proxy wars? Good for business so they'll keep at them. Direct attack? Very, very bad for business.

All I really know is that the Turkish border violations of Syria will either stop once the anti-air systems are fully deployed or Turkish pilots will die. I'm not sure if there have even been any since the incident.

By the way Russia mentioned they suspect the Su-24 was actually downed by a ground battery.

Turkey says Russia is bombing civilian villages. Given that since arriving in Syria all Russia has done is bomb civilian targets I am inclined to agree with Turkey instead of the known liars in Russia.

I mostly agree, but something is going on in Syria distinctly different from the usual proxy war approach. In this case, multiple powers with competing agendas are involved in the same place, and more troubling, it's more and more by direct action rather than proxy. While we haven't yet seen any significant blows between outside powers, it is certainly more likely.

Even the Turkmen militia has stated that the villages have been completely deserted by the civilian population. Can you shut the fuck up with your deliberate disinformation, you stupid little shit?

In other news, this is just... golden.

Turkey hopes to buy S-400 air defense systems from Russia
RUSSIA
16:13 27.04.2009


Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20090427/121328739.html#ixzz3sX5oi4tA

The Soviet Union only stopped being a socialist country around 1991. Which IIRC was 24 years ago

I can't believe any reasonably thinking person would consider themselves a "communist". Must less admit it.

Seems to me that almost all sides to this are pursuing their own strategic interests with little actual regard for preventing "terrorism", despite universally declaring that that is their goal.

Turkey want to support the Turkmen and damage the Kurds.
Russia wants to support the Assad regime.
"The west" want to damage the Assad regime.
The Arab states want to support Islamists.

All of this helps ISIS in various ways. It's almost as if none of them actually give a fuck.

I wouldnt support communism either, but, to their own i cant believe any reasonably thinking person would hold your views of women in the work place.

What views? I have no problem with women in the workplace. Amy works full time.

@Dayton3

I've kinda had it. Do you know how many of those sanctimonious platitudes I've had to deal with from ignorant right-wingers like you? You are really going to try to teach me about Communism, you conceited little fuckwit? Have I ever tried to give you Bible lessons? Care to give me a lecture on the meaning of the labor theory of value and the unity of opposites while you're at it?

I am well aware that the Soviet Union as an entity fell in the nineties. I visited Leningrad the year prior. Socialism in the Soviet Union died with the victory of the counter-revolution within the CPSU. This started as far back as Nikita Khrushchev's rise to power. I would characterize the USSR under Joseph Stalin as essentially an increasingly deformed worker's state.

I see. If you can't win on the facts, change the definitions.

Classic goalpost moving on your part.........

kudos

Turkey wants to damage the Kurds, who are the most pro-Western people in the region, for it's own internal dynamics. Under Erdogan Turkey has slipped toward becoming an Islamist state again. Screw that.

The Russian plan is the best. Assad's regime may have generated a lot of resentment, but at least it kept the Sunni radicals in check. You could think of Syria as a vast institution to safely house violent schizophrenics.

The "west" actually means Obama and his blind idiocy. If Assad's Syria could be replaced by a happy faced country where everybody danced and held hands as they voted, I would be all for replacing him. His regime has been a bad actor for years, destabilizing and invading Lebanon and being a complete pain in the ass. It was secular, but a secular Soviet style police state.

When the Arab Spring first started, it seemed that positive change was a real possibility, but Obama sat back as extremely violent religious fanatics slowly displaced the moderates. Obama never rethinks anything and never changes course no matter how disastrous his policies are, so he's still clinging to the notion that Assad must go. At this point, if Assad goes ISIS will be two or three times stronger, will crush and co-opt all other opposition groups, and will be free to go through another major expansion phase. Yet Obama's firm position that Assad must go convinces all the rebel jihadists that they'll eventually win. He's like their Uncle Sam.

The Arab states were supporting the Islamists, and still are, but many realized that ISIS was beyond their control. They fed the alligator and it will eat them, too.

He claims others are spreading disinformation while he posts a link to Sputnik News... A Kremlin controlled disinformation outlet! You can't make this shit up, folks.

I just won on the facts, asshole. You're simply too poorly educated to even understand what I am talking about.

A Socialist state is by Marxist terminology - and I am a Marxist-Leninist, which I have repeatedly stated, and which means the Marxist definition is what I am referring to - the dictatorship of the Proletariat, as manifest by a state under which the means of production is put under the control of the Proletariat and serving its interests. In its initial phase the Socialist state presides over a state Capitalist economy. A core concept of this is Democratic Centralism, loosely describable as "freedom of discussion and unity of action", which was yet another gradually eroding aspect during the Soviet experiment.

To put it extremely simple a state is not Socialist if it does not serve the interests of the working class against the Bourgeoisie and the Soviet Union stopped doing that over fifty years ago, conservatively.

The problem here is that you are too uninformed about the basic concepts for any discussion about this matter to be fruitful in the slightest.

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/24/9792830/russia-plane-turkmen

Anyway, thst link if for people interested in reality. The idea that all 3.5 million Turkmen in the region have been evacuated is preposterous especially since they would never abandon their land. They still dream of reunification with Turkey so they are not going to abandon land they have held for centuries.

I bet Armalyte also believed Sputnik when they declared no Russian forces were in Crimea or that Russia had not invaded Ukraine.

"There are no civilians in those civilian villages and millions of Turkmen civilians in the region have just disappeared." Tell us another whopper.

You absolute little shit. That source is SIX YEARS OLD. It is a non-politized news article about a possible business deal with Turkey.

Want confirmation from other sources?

How about Arabian Aerospace? http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/turkey-seeks-russian-sam-system.html

How about STRATFOR? https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/russias-expanding-influence-part-4-major-players

How about Turkish Defense? http://www.trdefence.com/2010/06/17/russia-hopes-to-sell-s-400-to-turkey/

How about Today's Zaman? http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomac...triot-missiles-in-78-billion-deal_187034.html

Basically, the deal fell apart because Russia was uncomfortable selling it and wanted Turkey to settle on the S-300 system instead.

It's always the same with you.

In any event Turkey has been having problems with the west for several years now. The US and UK were upset with Erdian over his increasingly authoritarian rule and curtailments of freedom of speech, the EU has been pissed off at Turkey because they keep letting migrants into the west and refuse to stop them, the US was pissed off because Turkey was bombing the Kurds who the US sees as the best friends of the west of any of the factions in the Syrian war, and as even Dayton had said the US has been blocking sales of military equipment to Turkey (such as upgrades for their F-16c fighter planes) hoping to leverage policy changes out of Erdogan.

Thsee tensions have been going on since Erdogan and is Islamist party was elected almost a decade ago. Erdogan made some public statements about not needing the west and being able to get equipment else where but he never really went through with it.

That was probably what your S-400 inquiry five years ago was about. Not a serious attempt to purchase just an attempt to get the west to get off his back and to stop blocking arms sales.

Tomato, potato......which in a Marxist state you'll see damn few of either.........

Oh come on Dayton, you are being silly here. I'm no fan of communism, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize the difference between it and authoritarian brutalism. The Soviet Union may have been communist early on, but that changed. You can be against what is represented by both eras, but at least acknowledge the difference.

I'm not going to defend @Dayton3 's idiocy, but would you mind telling us during what period exactly the means of production was under the control of the proletariat and what period there was freedom of discussion? Rather than being eroded at some point during Bolshevik rule, it seems to me that those things were strangled right at the start, to the extent that they ever existed at all.

Further, the need for a "state capitalist" era is an invention of the Leninism too, to justify their anti-socialist policies, not something originating in broader "Marxist" theory that was ever proposed before that.

They would have done far better if they had kept the Kerensky government and skipped the whole communism nonsense.

I'm not sure how that could have happened either. The Kerensky government was lapsing into something akin to fascism.

When has any communist country had freedom of discussion? Heck, the liberals are trying to stamp it out at US universities. They're going to take your stuff, end of discussion.

Even under the "enlightened" Gorbachev in the late 1980s, the Soviets were brutally suppressing protesters and killing thousands in Afghanistan.

A killer with a smile is still a killer......