The Alternative Energy Thread

steve2^4 · Nov 12, 2014

Azure said: ↑

Not if power companies own the coal powered plant on the outskirts of town. Solar on 100,000 homes would remove the need for plants like that, and considering they are paid for already and coal is dirt cheap, chances are the owners of the coal plants make a lot of money.
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Chances are the owners of the coal mines make lots of money, but the owners of the coal fired steam plants would be just as happy not having to turn up the heat and still make profit from the retail sale of power purchased wholesale from you and me.

steve2^4 · Jan 28, 2015

Tesla sales video (requires headphones at work). Insane mode?

garamet · Feb 10, 2015

World's largest solar plant opens in Riverside County

Tuckerfan · May 12, 2015

steve2^4 said: ↑

um yes. But it's a 70 meters long (may someday reach 100 meters) bike path, cost 3 million euros, and collects only 70% of what an equivalent roof based system would.

It's nice they're actually doing it but it doesn't seem like a particularly efficient road building technique or solar collection method. They have no connection to the solar roadway guys (heaters and LEDs "A Real Solution!").

The only advantage I'm seeing is one of aesthetics: not having to sully roof lines or clutter the country side with collectors (but paving it is ok).
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It has beaten expectations in terms of energy produced.

Back in November, SolaRoad launched a test bike path that generates energy through solar cells embedded in the concrete. It sounds like an outlandish idea, but it's apparently paying off very quickly. The company has revealed that its road has generated much more energy than expected -- it produced 3,000kWh of electricity in the space of just six months, or enough to power a single person's home for a year. That doesn't sound like much, but SolaRoad notes that its path only covers a 230-foot stretch in a Dutch village. You'd get a lot more energy from longer, wider roads.
Things haven't been going perfectly. The coating on the solar cells' protective glass tends to peel off when the weather changes, for example, suggesting that the path could be expensive to maintain as-is. However, the project is going to last for another two and a half years. SolaRoad believes that it'll have plenty of time to iron out the kinks, and it's confident enough that it plans to test its technology on small municipal roads in the future. Between this and Solar Roadways in the US, you may soon find cycling routes that are as much about saving the environment as getting you from A to B.
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steve2^4 · May 12, 2015

I acknowledge they've had modest success generating 60% of an average US consumer's single house electricity consumption with 230 linear feet of solar path (about 1,300sqft), but really don't see the advantage to this over solar panels on a roof. The latter has the advantage of being angled (hopefully in the correct direction), keeping the sun's radiation off the roof itself, and not having to support traffic.

Solar roads are uneconomic either as paving or energy collectors.

mburtonk · May 12, 2015

Hey, people can be dreamers. If not solar roads, maybe a manufacturing process for extra-durable solar panels, or some other useful technology that wouldn't have been figured out otherwise.

Lanzman · May 12, 2015

steve2^4 said: ↑

I acknowledge they've had modest success generating 60% of an average US consumer's single house electricity consumption with 230 linear feet of solar path (about 1,300sqft), but really don't see the advantage to this over solar panels on a roof. The latter has the advantage of being angled (hopefully in the correct direction), keeping the sun's radiation off the roof itself, and not having to support traffic.

Solar roads are uneconomic either as paving or energy collectors.
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Disagree. If the tech pans out, solar paving can make use of "free" open space. No trees need be removed, the roads are already there and (mostly) owned by governments so there's no additional right-of-way issues, no extra land need be purchased, and so on. Seems like a good way to get multiple uses out of the same asset.

steve2^4 · May 12, 2015

I'm not seeing it. If it cost more to pave a road in solar panels than will be realized in energy savings in other forms of solar generation (including the cost of the footprint) it won't happen. But I guess that's what you meant by "if the tech pans out." This is up there with the air-powered car.

Paladin · May 12, 2015

Lanzman said: ↑

steve2^4 said: ↑

I acknowledge they've had modest success generating 60% of an average US consumer's single house electricity consumption with 230 linear feet of solar path (about 1,300sqft), but really don't see the advantage to this over solar panels on a roof. The latter has the advantage of being angled (hopefully in the correct direction), keeping the sun's radiation off the roof itself, and not having to support traffic.

Solar roads are uneconomic either as paving or energy collectors.
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Disagree. If the tech pans out, solar paving can make use of "free" open space. No trees need be removed, the roads are already there and (mostly) owned by governments so there's no additional right-of-way issues, no extra land need be purchased, and so on. Seems like a good way to get multiple uses out of the same asset.
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Solar roadways are a colossally bad idea.

If you want an engineer's take--that demonstrates in detail how flawed the idea is--watch this video:

Bailey · May 12, 2015

Lanzman said: ↑

steve2^4 said: ↑

I acknowledge they've had modest success generating 60% of an average US consumer's single house electricity consumption with 230 linear feet of solar path (about 1,300sqft), but really don't see the advantage to this over solar panels on a roof. The latter has the advantage of being angled (hopefully in the correct direction), keeping the sun's radiation off the roof itself, and not having to support traffic.

Solar roads are uneconomic either as paving or energy collectors.
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Disagree. If the tech pans out, solar paving can make use of "free" open space. No trees need be removed, the roads are already there and (mostly) owned by governments so there's no additional right-of-way issues, no extra land need be purchased, and so on. Seems like a good way to get multiple uses out of the same asset.
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I agree with you Lanz, but the Solar Roadways concept is incredibly over-engineered. I think it will end up happening, however it will be done with more crude solutions like photovoltaic paint. There are various teams working on bringing the cost of such paint down and while it will never be as efficient as carefully engineered panels it should reach a point where it is cheap enough that the lower efficiency doesn't matter.

steve2^4 · May 13, 2015

perhaps, but the cost of wiring photovoltaic painted sections of road to the grid would be prohibitive. Also the energy loss over distance might negate any electricity generated this way. The paint should radiate EM energy when an EM receptor is near, say on the bottom of an electric car. yeah that'd work.

Liet · Jun 19, 2015

A blast from the past, explaining why we need alternative energy today:

gturner · Jun 20, 2015

To melt glaciers?

Tuckerfan · Aug 3, 2015

New coating improves the performance of solar panels.

This New Coating Makes Solar Panels Super-Powered
Most panels waste infrared light, but now that we can capture it, we could reduce the size and cost of solar installations.

Usually infrared light goes straight through solar panels, contributing zero energy to the cells. A new coating could convert that wasted IR light to a form easily absorbed and boost energy output by 30%.

The coating consists of nanoparticles and organic materials. The former absorbs the infrared photons and passes the energy onto the latter, which emit fewer, but higher-energy, visible-light photons. "Put simply, the inorganics in the composite material take light in; the organics get light out. This 550-nanometer light can be absorbed by any solar cell material," says Christopher Bardeen, a professor of chemistry at University of California Riverside, in a press release.

This magic material, which "upconverts" light essentially by changing its color, can boost the power output of a solar panel by almost a third. This in turn means that a solar installation can be made smaller for a given power output. And because land and labor make up the majority of the costs of a solar installation, these installations can be made much cheaper. It also makes smaller panels more practical and could make personal rooftop power viable in otherwise marginal environments—where the sun doesn’t always shine, for example.

It’s not just solar panels that can make use of this technology. The material can change the color of light, rather than merely filter it. A filter, like the colored lenses in old-timey 3-D glasses, work by cutting out light—a green filter blocks red and blue light and so on. Bardeen and assistant professor Ming Lee Tang’s material actually changes the color of all the light.

An LCD screen today has a colored filter over each pixel to make it red, green or blue. If those filters could instead take the discarded two-thirds of the light and change it to match the target color, you’d have a screen that needed much less energy. Given that the biggest battery drain in your phone or tablet is the screen, that’s a pretty big deal.
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steve2^4 · Aug 4, 2015

Cool! And I thought everything had already been invented

Tuckerfan · Aug 13, 2015

MIT thinks they've finally got this whole fusion business cracked.

It’s an old joke that many fusion scientists have grown tired of hearing: Practical nuclear fusion power plants are just 30 years away — and always will be.
But now, finally, the joke may no longer be true: Advances in magnet technology have enabled researchers at MIT to propose a new design for a practical compact tokamak fusion reactor — and it’s one that might be realized in as little as a decade, they say. The era of practical fusion power, which could offer a nearly inexhaustible energy resource, may be coming near.
Using these new commercially available superconductors, rare-earth barium copper oxide (REBCO) superconducting tapes, to produce high-magnetic field coils “just ripples through the whole design,” says Dennis Whyte, a professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering and director of MIT’s Plasma Science and Fusion Center. “It changes the whole thing.”
The stronger magnetic field makes it possible to produce the required magnetic confinement of the superhot plasma — that is, the working material of a fusion reaction — but in a much smaller device than those previously envisioned. The reduction in size, in turn, makes the whole system less expensive and faster to build, and also allows for some ingenious new features in the power plant design. The proposed reactor, using a tokamak (donut-shaped) geometry that is widely studied, is described in a paper in the journal Fusion Engineering and Design, co-authored by Whyte, PhD candidate Brandon Sorbom, and 11 others at MIT. The paper started as a design class taught by Whyte and became a student-led project after the class ended.
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Lots more at the link.

Tuckerfan · Nov 1, 2016

US Army to test GM fuel cell truck.

General Motors has announced that the US Army is going to start testing a new fuel-cell-powered pickup concept – the Chevy Colorado ZH2. The off-road, aggressively styled pickup was developed together with the US Army Tank Automotive Research, Development and Engineering Center with real-world testing to begin sometime next year.

To develop the fuel-cell powered electric Colorado ZH2 concept, GM started with the standard Colorado chassis and then stretched it so it is now 6.5-feet-tall and more than 7-feet-wide. The pickup also gets a specially modified suspension and rides on massive 37-inch tires. According to GM, the army is going to test the many benefits that a fuel-cell electric powertrain can provide, like near-silent operation, high wheel torque and reduced fuel consumption.

“The Colorado ZH2 is a terrific example of GM’s engineering and design skill in creating an off-road vehicle relevant to a range of potential users,” said Charlie Freese, executive director of GM Global Fuel Cell Activities. “Over the next year, we expect to learn from the Army the limits of what a fuel cell propulsion system can do when really put to the test.”

The Colorado ZH2 concept also features an Exportable Power Take-Off unit that allows the fuel cell to power activity away from the vehicle, such as remote locations where electric power may otherwise be unavailable.
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Tuckerfan · Nov 25, 2016

Large scale testing of solar roads to being next year.

Rugged solar roads to hit four continents in 2017

Solar-generating roadways could soon be a reality on roads everywhere, thanks to new technology from Europe. According to Bloomberg, Colas SA, a subsidiary of France’s Bouygues Group has been working on solar panels that are tough enough to handle the load of an 18-wheeler truck – and are currently building them into some French road surfaces, with plans to test the technology across four continents in 2017.

These panels have already undergone five years of research and laboratory tests, but before they hit the roads in a major way, the company plans to test them further by building 100 outdoor test sites over the next year. “We wanted to find a second life for a road,” Colas SA’s Wattaway Unit chief technology officer told Bloomberg. “Solar farms use land that could otherwise be for agriculture, while the roads are free.”

How does a road made of solar panels withstand the weight of a massive semi truck, you might ask? According to Bloomberg, while the panels are made with ordinary solar cells such as those that might be on your roof, they are layered with several types of plastic on top to create a sturdy casing that can withstand abuse. It has electrical wiring embedded, and is coated with a layer of crushed glass to create an anti-slip surface.

Wattaway began testing the new product last month on a kilometer-long site in the French town of Tourouvre. At 2,800 square meters in area, the embedded solar panel array is expected to generate about 280 kilowatts of energy at peak capacity. The company says that’s enough power to provide public lighting for a town of up to 5,000 people for a whole year. They also told Bloomberg they intend to test the technology in Calgary, Canada, Georgia, USA, throughout the European Union, Africa and Asia, with plans to commercialize in 2018.

Add this innovation to Tesla’s solar roof and what Solar Roadways is doing in the U.S., and it’s been a good year for unconventional applications of solar power.
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oldfella1962 · Nov 25, 2016

Paladin said: ↑

Science: puttin' the P in C-3PO.
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C-3PO no you di-int!

steve2^4 · Nov 25, 2016

Bouygues and their Colas division aren't to be scoffed at. Still, this seems destined to failure. Mark my words, I may have to eat them in a couple years. The French do have a different attitude about energy and infrastructure, they have that going for them.

Financial support could come from the government: Ms Royal (French minister of ecology and energy) has proposed to raise taxes on petrol to support to fund improvements to France’s transport infrastructure and solar roadways could receive their fair share of the pot. source
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Any update on the Dutch experiment?

Tuckerfan · Nov 25, 2016

steve2^4 said: ↑

Bouygues and their Colas division aren't to be scoffed at. Still, this seems destined to failure. Mark my words, I may have to eat them in a couple years. The French do have a different attitude about energy and infrastructure, they have that going for them.

Financial support could come from the government: Ms Royal (?) has proposed to raise taxes on petrol to support to fund improvements to France’s transport infrastructure and solar roadways could receive their fair share of the pot. source
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Any update on the Dutch experiment?
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Mixed.

Consider that the SolaRoad cost $3.7 million to build, and in the Netherlands, solar energy costs $2 per kilowatt. That means the money spent for the SolaRoad could have bought 520,000 kilowatts of electricity. Compare that amount with the 3,000 kilowatts produced by the SolaRoad, and it’s easy to see why some people aren’t convinced the project was worthwhile. That’s 173 houses that could have been powered instead of one, for those wondering about the math.

The cost involved and the possible challenges with finding materials that can tolerate certain climates are two possible reasons why solar bike paths may not be poised for widespread adoption just yet. Still, we’re learning a tremendous amount by giving it a shot, and there is hope for the future.
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It performed better in terms of energy production than what they expected, however.

Tuckerfan · Dec 4, 2016

Perhaps this will inspire them to remake Diamonds are Forever.

Diamonds turn nuclear waste into nuclear batteries

One problem with dealing with nuclear waste is that it's often hard to tell what's waste and what's a valuable resource. Case in point is the work of physicists and chemists at the University of Bristol, who have found a way to convert thousands of tonnes of seemingly worthless nuclear waste into man-made diamond batteries that can generate a small electric current for longer than the entire history of human civilization.

How to dispose of nuclear waste is one of the great technical challenges of the 21st century. The trouble is, it usually turns out not to be so much a question of disposal as long-term storage. If it was simply a matter of getting rid of radioactive material permanently, there are any number of options, but spent nuclear fuel and other waste consists of valuable radioactive isotopes that are needed in industry and medicine, or can be reprocessed to produce more fuel. Disposal, therefore is more often a matter of keeping waste safe, but being able to get at it later when needed.

One unexpected example of this is the Bristol team's work on a major source of nuclear waste from Britain's aging Magnox reactors, which are now being decommissioned after over half a century of service. These first generation reactors used graphite blocks as moderators to slow down neutrons to keep the nuclear fission process running, but decades of exposure have left the UK with 95,000 tonnes (104,720 tons) of graphite blocks that are now classed as nuclear waste because the radiation in the reactors changes some of the inert carbon in the blocks into radioactive carbon-14.

Carbon-14 is a low-yield beta particle emitter that can't penetrate even a few centimeters of air, but it's still too dangerous to allow into the environment. Instead of burying it, the Bristol team's solution is to remove most of the c-14 from the graphite blocks and turn it into electricity-generating diamonds.

The nuclear diamond battery is based on the fact that when a man-made diamond is exposed to radiation, it produces a small electric current. According to the researchers, this makes it possible to build a battery that has no moving parts, gives off no emissions, and is maintenance-free.

The Bristol researchers found that the carbon-14 wasn't uniformly distributed in the Magnox blocks, but is concentrated in the side closest to the uranium fuel rods. To produce the batteries, the blocks are heated to drive out the carbon-14 from the radioactive end, leaving the blocks much less radioactive than before. c-14 gas is then collected and using low pressures and high temperatures is turned into man-made diamonds.

Once formed, the beta particles emitted by the c-14 interact with the diamond's crystal lattice, throwing off electrons and generating electricity. The diamonds themselves are radioactive, so they are given a second non-radioactive diamond coating to act as a radiation shield. This means a person sitting next to a diamond battery would receive about as much radiation as they would sitting next to a banana. In addition, the hardness of the diamonds helps keep the radioactive material safe.

"Carbon-14 was chosen as a source material because it emits a short-range radiation, which is quickly absorbed by any solid material," says Neil Fox from the School of Chemistry. "This would make it dangerous to ingest or touch with your naked skin, but safely held within diamond, no short-range radiation can escape. In fact, diamond is the hardest substance known to man, there is literally nothing we could use that could offer more protection."

The team has already built a prototype diamond battery that uses the isotope nickel-63 as radioactive fuel and is now moving on to using carbon-14, which will be more efficient. Because c-14 has such a long half life, the researchers estimate a diamond battery would still generate 50 percent of its capacity after 5,730 years

"We envision these batteries to be used in situations where it is not feasible to charge or replace conventional batteries," says Tom Scott, Professor in Materials. "Obvious applications would be in low-power electrical devices where long life of the energy source is needed, such as pacemakers, satellites, high-altitude drones, or even spacecraft. There are so many possible uses that we're asking the public to come up with suggestions of how they would utilize this technology by using #diamondbattery."

The team's results were presented at the Cabot Institute's "Ideas to change the world" lecture.
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Tuckerfan · Dec 29, 2016

Oil company dumps oil for wind.

In a startling move, Norwegian state-owned oil and gas company Statoil recently pulled all its investments out of the Alberta tar sands after winning a contract to develop an offshore wind farm in U.S. waters. CleanTechnica reports the company began selling off its tar sands assets almost within hours of learning earlier this month it had won the right to build a wind farm off the coast of New York State.
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France opens its first solar road.

The world's first solar highway has been opened in France, in the not-very-sunny village of Tourouvre au Perche in Normandy. The roadway is just one kilometre (0.6mi) long, but that still works out at 2,800 square metres of photovoltaic cells—enough, hopefully, to power the village's street lights.

The road was built by Colas, a large Anglo-French construction company. Colas has apparently been working on its own solar road tech, called Wattway, for at least five years. Wattway has been tested in car parks, but this is the first time it has been used on an active road. There will now be a two-year test period, to see if Wattway can withstand the rigour of being pounded by thousands of cars and trucks per day, and whether it can actually provide a useful amount of electricity.

One of the Wattway panels up close.
Enlarge / One of the Wattway panels up close.
Usefulness aside, the main problem with constructing solar roads is their crippling cost. One of the main selling points of Wattway, according to Colas, is that each panel is just a few millimetres thick, and can thus be installed on top of an existing road, which in turn massively reduces construction costs. Having said that, the 1km road in Normandy cost €5 million (£4.3m) to build. And that's for a single lane of a two-lane highway!
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More at both links.

steve2^4 · Dec 29, 2016

While I'm big on wind, I'm feeling less bullish on solar roads. If Elon said he was going to do them I'd still snicker. He's into boring tunnels now it seems.

Tuckerfan · Feb 12, 2017

Georgia (the state, not the country) gets a solar road.

First Wattway solar road pilot in US pops up in rural Georgia
The first Wattway solar road pilot in America has popped up in rural west Georgia. The Ray C. Anderson Foundation, named for sustainable manufacturing pioneer Ray Anderson, is testing renewable technologies along an 18-mile stretch of road, and recently installed 538 square feet of Colas‘ Wattway solar road system near the border between Georgia and Alabama.

Part of Georgia’s Interstate 85 was named for Anderson, but as over five million tons of carbon dioxide are emitted yearly on that road portion alone, Anderson’s family felt placing his name there didn’t honor his legacy, and began to look into renewable technologies to clear the air – so to speak. Thus began The Ray, an 18-mile living laboratory for clean technologies, including not only the solar roads, but also a solar-powered electric vehicle charging station, and WheelRight, a system people can drive over to test their tire pressure, which could lead to improved fuel inefficiency.

The first Wattway solar panel pilot is part of The Ray near a Georgia Visitor Information Center in West Point, Georgia. According to Wattway by Colas, the average expected output for the 538-square-meter pilot is anticipated to be 7,000 kilowatt-hours per year, which will help power the center.

And these technologies are just the beginning. The foundation will also construct bioswales, or shallow drainage ditches filled with native Georgia plants to capture pollutants during rain. In a right-of-way space, they’ll build a one megawatt solar installation. They’re working with the Georgia Department of Transportation to bring such ideas to life along the 18-mile road stretch. Not only will several of their projects beautify the highway, but will generate clean energy and bring in money for investors. And other parts of the state have shown interest in building their own Wattway roads.

The Ray executive director Allie Kelly dreams of a day when highways will “serve as a power grid for the future,” but she believes that day is coming sooner than we may think. She told Curbed, “We’re at a tipping point in transportation. In five to ten years, we won’t remember a time when we invested a dime in infrastructure spending for a road that only did one thing.”
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steve2^4 · Feb 13, 2017

7,000 KWH/year is 19KWH/day. Assuming about 4 hours average peak generation per day (optimistic, I think for GA) that's an output of 4,700 watts. 4,700 watts/538sq feet* is 8.7 watts/sqft. That's about state of the art for panels so it might be a bit optimistic given they can't angle the panels to catch the rays.

A more efficient and cost effective means of generating power would have been to put 538 sqft of panels on the visitor center roof, or off to the side, maybe in a right-of-way space. Oops I see they're already doing that.

A solar array capable of 1 megawatt output would require 100,000 sq ft of solar panels. A right-of-way installation 20ft wide would be a mile long. Georgia DOT and Public Service Commission is managing that project. That's interesting. more

*edit: oops, that's 538 sq meters, not feet. Who the hell uses meters in GA?

Converting sq meters to sq feet it's 5,790 sq ft (not 538) so they're only producing 4,700 watts over 5,790 sq ft which is only 0.8 watts/sq ft. Someone's numbers are off. Might be mine. Wonder what output per sq meter Colas advertises.

5,790 sq ft in a 12 foot wide strip would be 480 feet long. Pics don't show entire length but I'm willing to bet it's not more than 45 feet long, which would be consistent with 538sq ft.

Colas is peculiarly circumspect providing details on output for their panels. If we assume that they aren't woefully inefficient and the GA installers put meters when they meant feet, then 8.7 watts per sq ft is reasonable. more

edit edit: oops oops, they used both meters and feet with 538 in different places. I'm not nuts.

Tuckerfan · Dec 11, 2017

Oooh, a turbine powered hybrid electric car!

THIS MAD SCIENTIST BUILT A HYBRID JET-ELECTRIC MAZDA RX7!

As if rotaries are not loud enough already, a mad scientist by the name of Patrick Huu decided he was going to make a hybrid electric RX7 using a jet turbine instead of the previous rotary donk.

We received a few pictures of the contraption from a friend who recently attended “Radwood”, an 80s-90s car show held in Anaheim, California. After we saw that, we just had to do some digging to find out details about this weirdly wonderful Mazda.

The engine itself is a JetCat SPT-15RX turboprop borrowed from a model aircraft. They put out around 15kw, or up to 20kw if you really want to push the limits.

Usually these engines are designed to run on kerosene, however they can also run on diesel as seen in the embedded video at the bottom of this article.

The turboprop drives a generator capable of around 40kw, which in turn charges a boot-full of Enerdel LiNMC batteries, providing around 25kWh.

So, is it efficient? Well the little Mazda gets around 110km on a full charge when in electric only mode, and up to 500km with the jet turbine recharging the batteries.

The main issue with turboprops is they are designed to sit at a specific RPM and don’t tend to be efficient when revving up or down. As such, the system uses the same amount of fuel regardless of the vehicle’s speed, being that the turboprop will be spending most of it’s time in a steady state.

Patrick tells us that the fuel economy hovers around the 7L per 100km. Not too bad when compared to the fuel guzzling rotary that used to call this RX7 home.

Though, while he might be saving the environment by sipping less fuel, the neighbours probably will have something to say about the racket this thing generates!
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Pics and video at the link.

Dayton Kitchens · Dec 12, 2017

There was an interesting idea a few years ago in Popular Mechanics about covering the parking lots of McDonalds across the United States in a kind of wear resistant solar panels that could recharge any electric vehicles parked there. IIRC the "road panels" were projected to cost three times as much as equivalent asphalt but make up for that in durability and return on electricity.

The idea pointed out that most electric cars could only go about 300 miles on a charge, but that McDonalds were all across the United States and that if all you had to do to recharge an electric car was to find a McDonalds you could drive from Idaho to Florida pretty easily. While I'm no big fan of electric vehicles the idea of using McDonalds franchise as ready made distribution infrastructure is an intriguing one.

Lanzman · Dec 12, 2017

Most ICE vehicles don't go much more than 300-350 miles on a tank of gas.

Tuckerfan · Dec 15, 2017

Lanzman said: ↑

Most ICE vehicles don't go much more than 300-350 miles on a tank of gas.
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True, the difference between a gasser and an electric is that it currently only takes about five minutes to refill your tank, while, it can take 30 minutes or more to recharge an electric car. (There's also issues with declining range as electrics age, and in extremely cold weather.

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