The Freedom Keeps Coming - Texas Drug Testing High Schoolers

@garamet apparently gets off on lying about what people believe and/or what they've posted.

Pitiful.

Nice for you to admit you are. Changing your name hasn't changed anything else about you, Mr. "I wish the world could be the way it was in the 1970s." People know what you post and, if you don't remember, it's time to consult a neurologist. Early-onset Alzheimer's is a terrible thing.

How can you claim that when I've probably been required to have more drug tests than anyone here?

I wasn't referring to drug tests. I was referring to your endless lament about how "I wish the world was just the way it was when I was growing up."

My bad. I assumed we were talking about "drug testing" because that is what THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.

I didn't realize that we would be discussing something I said elsewhere at some other time.

Jesus, Dayton.

Freedom for me, but test children's pee.

They should probably have mandatory STD, pregnancy and virginity checks too.

Why am I supposed to care? Oh, someone might not get to be on speech team if they do drugs? How terrible.

Why are so many worked up over drug testing of some high schoolers? Like it or not when you are doing something in public on the public dime then the public is reasonable to have certain expectations of you.

Drug test every one who works for the public if you ask me. Police officers, local government officials, federal government officials, civil servants, military. Everyone.

Now referencing the OP, "What about freedom?"

What about it? I've had scores of drug tests over the years and I can't think of a single instance of how I lost any "freedom" due to one.

It's telling that you see getting an education as "working for the public", rather than as a right that is being provided.

I'm not certain how to classify the regular classes and stuff that students are required but I know in regards to athletics I've been around more than one coach who when making a speech to the team said to the effect

"Remember this is basically your job. You asked for it." I never made that kind of speech though. I was more of a screaming, dancing, bashing my unprotected head against their helmets until my forehead was bleeding motivator. Or working the sideline wearing short sleeves in 22 degree weather at night.

Not sure if I'm still up for all that though. I'm getting older.

Were you drug tested as a - minor - student? /thread

What a stupid speech. I assume you paid them money for the job?

You always seem pretty quick to jump on the 'rights' bandwagon, apparently without a clear understanding of what a right is.

I wouldn't term an education as a 'right'. In modern countries, it's a taxpayer funded service provided by the government. Sort of like government funded health care in the countries that have it.

Here's an aside for you: you are always quick on the trigger to talk (and perhaps demand) your 'rights.'

As a citizen of whatever country you're a citizen of, what do you see as your responsibilities? Or do you deny that, as a citizen, you have any civic duties at all?

I'll turn that back on you. What responsibilities does the US Constitution ask of you?

As for myself, yes - I DO see education as a right, because a democracy demands an informed electorate and society demands educated members or we may as well give chimps the fucking vote.

As for how I pay it back - I'm a university lecturer. Only one person in my family went to university before I did, and that was for Sports Science. I couldn't have gone except for taxpayer-funded grants. Which I also repay by being taxed at 40% on my income, by the way, not that I mind that because I think folk who earn high salaries SHOULD pay more tax - of course, the fuckers exploiting loopholes to evade tax annoy me for that very reason.

Now, you want to question me some more, or do I get to psychoanalyze how your military background might have shaped how you answer my first sentence above?

six times. Every year I played football

Hell, I'll answer it for Marso:

The first five items, you'll note, imply that the citizen is educated, at least to some degree, in order to know the Constitution, the issues affecting their community, vote, know the law and know the rights and beliefs of others.

Point Seven pretty much requires some education, if not for the job, then in order to pay tax.

A jury of peers... unless it's Dayton, they're gonna need some education.

Now, all that said - we can argue just how far those "responsibilities" are chased up, given some of y'all. But those of us with educations aren't likely to be the ones shirking.

The U.S. has a culture of education for career advancement. The idea of going to college to learn about the world, and to be a better citizen? That became an outdated concept decades ago. There's no time to become a better citizen, to help your neighbor and become aware of the world. We're all about working until we're dead from exhaustion now.

I appreciate this sentiment, but dammit... I'm thinking of taking an Open University (UK accredited distance learning) degree in another subject and had settled on Computing/IT because it could be useful career-wise if I ever get too old/expensive to employ in my current field (and would boost my cred in current field). But I don't really WANT to do it versus something like Planetary Science/Astrophysics that would interest me...

I know coming from a commie this is going to sound propaganda-ish, but one of the things that frustrates me about capitalism, at least late stage capitalism, is that there is no time to grow and learn as a person, because you're having to dedicate all of your time to working yourself silly while taking courses you don't really want to keep a job that is eating away at what short life you get. In a better system, you could work without worrying about having a roof over your head, food to eat, and the other essentials covered, while also going to school and learning about something you love.

At a glance, that as a citizen you participate in the Republican form of government it outlines by voting when eligible. Other than that, the Constitution in and of itself is a blueprint for the United States government, its functions, and its limitations. I think citizens should be versed on the Constitution so they have a clear understanding of how the government is supposed to function and what those limits are.

Fair enough; that's a commonly held viewpoint. We can quibble about whether it's a 'right' or a 'service' but I agree that education is essential to any functioning, well-ordered society.

I wasn't asking how you 'pay back' benefits you've received from society, but what you see as your responsibilities or civic duty as a citizen. For example: Do you consider it a responsibility of yours to vote during elections? To sit on a jury when called? To obey the law? You've already stated that you're happy to pay taxes, so that answers that one. Would you still be happy to do so if you hadn't been able to go to Uni on government grants? The thing that bothers me is that you're all about securing your rights, but what, if anything, do you feel a sense of obligation about to your country and fellow citizens? (And no, I'm not just talking about military service.) Or is your attitude more like: 'fuck it, I just live here. Didn't ask to be born; now give me all the free shit I'm entitled to.'

Sounds like you might be the one with the issue on that point. My position isn't that 'if you don't serve in the military, you don't contribute anything.' There are lots of ways to do something for other people that don't involve any sort of government service.

EDIT: Matthunter posted a decent reply when I was typing all of the above. Noted.

Then why would you want to work in the first place?

True, and in some systems there is support for retraining. I should clarify that no-one is forcing me to take another degree, nor am I THAT concerned about my long-term career. This is more because I would like to gain some extra skills (and give myself more to do of an evening than drink wine, trounce some of you fuckers and play video games) but I'm aware that, if I commit that much time, it should at least have a tangible benefit. Which is, as you say, a problem of our society - knowledge itself should be a tangible benefit, enriching the person. But I'm aware that, unless we invent warp drive between now and me getting the extra degree, someone with a Ph.D and 16 years postgraduate experience in Genomics plus a degree in Planetary Science/Astrophysics ain't likely to be in demand.

Whereas bioinformatics is a big thing in my field so Comp. Sci will help, and is useful as a fallback career skill anyhoo.

Translation: I'd get to be a slacker, do what I want, and let the Almighty State see to my needs from cradle to grave.

You don't have to work yourself to death in a capitalist system to survive. Our own welfare abusers have shown how that works quite clearly. You just have to make a decision about what standard of living you're willing to settle for so you can do all the other stuff you want to do on your own time.

To answer Marso where I didn't explicitly above, yes I'm in favour of jury duty and voting, though in the latter case I can accept both sides of the argument that NOT voting should also be a right - I would prefer mandatory voting with a "none of the above" option though to at least enhance the chances that the electorate will pay SOME attention to the candidates rather than dialing it in.

I was the last year in the UK to get a full maintenance grant for university (all tuition fees paid, living costs covered) because my parents didn't earn enough. Nowadays we have student loans, which are paid back once the student graduates and starts earning above a certain level. I'm ambivalent on this as it opens up university to more students, but it does mean we get some students who aren't actually good enough to be there and should have been encouraged to go for vocational training instead. It also saddles students with debt, and at that age they aren't always psychologically equipped to deal with it - we have FAR more students with some form of anxiety or depression these days, and it's not just because of better diagnosis. It's the educational equivalent of fearing a doctor's visit in the US in case he finds something your insurance won't cover you for.

Quite a lot of folk do though. Are they setting themselves too high a standard if they want decent nutrition AND a junkheap car to get to work in?

Freedom of choice.

I can't speak to your country, but we have the richest 'poor' people to be found anywhere on this Earth. Most are overweight, and walking around with cell phones and tats. America is so 'awful' that people are drowning themselves in the Rio Grande trying to get here. But hey, capitalism sucks.

Yet it's something you would like to do, something that would make you happy. Why can't you have it? You're working, and I've no doubt you work hard, so why can't you enjoy the fruits of your labor without having to devote yourself completely to a system that will only seek to exploit you until there's nothing left for you to put towards what you love? Capitalist systems don't believe in "enough" when it comes to benefits for those on the receiving end at the top. The tangible benefit is that you learn something, you grow in ways you've wanted, and you don't risk losing your home, food, medicine, or have to forsake the needs of your family. They like to say you're free to choose, but you're not. When your choice is work the way we want for the wage we want if you desire to eat, or go elsewhere and starve for wanting your life to mean more than a work title, that's not much of a choice, is it? That's kind of a Henry Ford choice, and we all know who he idolized.