Good thread from a doc who has seen this up front. And for anyone that doesn't want to read the Twitter chain: https://www.scarymommy.com/late-term-abortions-viral-thread/?utm_source=FB
Why is it every online "OMG, DON'T KILL YER BABY!1!!!" advocate is inevitably (a) male, and (b) completely unaware that he probably knows several women who've had abortions that have nothing to do with him? Just sayin'. Cue in five, four, three... Oh, and ETA: "Once they're born, not my problem, not my problem, not my problem..."
Oh, there's a number of kneejerk women idiots out there who buy that whole "babies' heads get crushed and smashed" bullshit too. The whole NY law thing's gotten mixed up when literally the only thing that's changed in the law is the decriminalization and red tape for those past 24 weeks to not have to wait for approval or got out of state for medically necessary abortions. And if it's that late, it always is.
If the "DON'T KILL YER BABY!11!!" mob really cared, they'd invest in better contraception. But they don't, so they don't.
It's pretty obvious that it's about controlling women and almost treating pregnancy as punishment for sex. It's that sexist, puritanical streak that refuses to die out in America. Because who knows better about women and their needs than a man afraid of sex and the fact that women are capable of thinking for themselves?
The whole anti-abortion movement is really about that. It is to punish the woman for having sex, and also to trap her and bring her down. The men are most likely not going to really contribute to the child's life without the bondage of marriage, so they want to saddle her with the kid so she won't be in the way while they are out there trying to get laid. If she has an abortion, she does not have to carry around a peice of you in her life forever, and that just pisses guys off.
Yeah, I can’t imagine someone who has no medical indication and just doesn’t want to be pregnant waiting that long to get an abortion. Why would anyone wait until you know the sex and you’re showing?
what really amazing is how many evangelical (and Catholic?) moms are brainwashed into believing exactly that.
Matters of faith aside, I started leaning towards the pro-choice side in my mid-20's and early-30's. And then, several years later, my son was born and I held him for the first time. That one moment changed everything about me and the way I think. Fast forward to today. The #1 topic that women seek counselling about from our Pastoral Ministry and our Chaplaincy is remorse and regret for abortions. The rate is astonishing. It's probably 15-20 of those for every 1 other matter.
Out of curiosity, are the women seeking counseling from your ministry and chaplaincy women of faith or of secular thinking? I wonder if the former influences the need to confront regret and remorse.
Obvious selection bias is obvious, you're talking about women who live in that community and identify with that religious culture and belief system. By and large you wouldn't encounter those who didn't experience such remorse pretty much by definition, but otherwise sure. I can't imagine many people wouldn't have some pretty strong mixed feelings after the fact, the whole process is always going to be a tragic and deeply upsetting thing to anyone with an ounce of humanity. Very few people are going to engage in abortion lightly or without compunction, but the human reluctance to "kill" in itself isn't a strong enough argument to make a rational decision on a point of law else we'd never fight another war again. Certainly the idea of it as murder is hyperbole on a par with the worst examples of Godwin. I've mixed feelings on abortion myself, as a man I'm never going to carry a child, but equally as an adoptee I could very easily have been a difficult decision that went differently. Admittedly in my case there were other factors involved along the way, but it does still affect your perspective. I'm not sure everyone who is pro life is about control rather than compassion, but I do believe many are and therein lies the problem. The whole issue is so emotive it's hard to separate the rational arguments form the emotive ones, the individually considered stances from the ideological or even outright emotionally manipulative.
Our Pastoral Ministry isn't limited solely to members of our Church and the Hospital Chaplaincy is open to everyone from all faiths. My mentor and Senior Pastor has a Doctorate in Counselling. I'll likely be going the same route when I finish my MDiv, ThM, and CPE. This is an ever growing problem that crosses all generational, socio-economic, and faith (or lack thereof) lines.
But still women who seek out support from such a body. I'd be interested in the figures on those who don't opt for such a recourse. Even there of course there's regret. Soldiers experience regret in war, but it doesn't follow the war was unjust. It's an incredibly difficult and traumatic experience which few engage in lightly. Leaving that aside though, isn't being non judgemental a tenet of how you operate?
It depends on what the person is seeking. A lot of people want absolution or at least a resolution. You can't have absolution without first doing something wrong and we will explore that. The first question I ask is always scripted. "What do you want to get from this?" Their answer determines where we go from there.
And therein lies the problem, if someone is seeking absolution they've already decided they've done something "wrong", which is also why they've sought out the services of a pastoral organisation. That's a selection bias.
I said "a lot of people," not "all people." I may have a title, but at the end of the day, I'm just a well-meaning amateur with a calling to help people. I can and do hand people off to people that have finished the degrees and certifications and are far, far smarter than I am. That said, my point is that this is so common that I'm actually surprised when a woman asks me about something else. Oh, and if you really want to go down yet another rabbit hole of contentious issues, the #1 thing men come to us about are the problems associated with viewing pornography and how it has detrimentally impacted their relationship with their spouse. That runs the gambit from unrealistic body expectations to frustration turned resentment when a partner doesn't want to, or can't, indulge in a specific "kink."
I'm not criticising what you are doing, on the contrary I'm quite impressed. My point though is that the very nature of what you are doing will expose you to a biased sample of women who have had abortions. that specific context will primarily lead to encounters with those who are seeking out solace, redemption, whatever it might be in the specific and likely doing so from a position of self determined guilt. You won't encounter those who are at peace with what they have done. Equally those who are seeking out emotional support without the trappings of religion (non denominational or otherwise) and the associated perception of value judgements will likely go elsewhere for a secular service leaving you with a very skewed sample coming through your door. Equally with males and pornography, those who have had entirely positive experiences will by and large not be turning up at your door, they'll be happily going about their day to day lives and not giving the matter a second thought (bear in mind here I'm not exactly an advocate of the porn industry either). It's the same point of logic I tried to make over detection dogs, 85% of your positive results being correct doesn't equate to 85% accuracy when you don't know how many you missed and the dog is already being asked to check those the handler (or their colleagues) is suspicious of. It's not an invalidation of the process, merely a word of caution about jumping to conclusions from observed outcomes where you can't control for other variables, especially when you have reason to speculate the effects of those other variable are massive. Again, I can't emphasise enough I'm not criticising, simply pointing out it would be misleading to draw too much by way of conclusions here.
As I've said before, the solution is better contraception. And, these days, given the shambles of public education, better education in the use of contraception, not to mention access to contraception. None of these things are addressed by the "DON'T KILL YER BABY!!!!11!" mob. It really comes down to a money thing. If every fertile woman had OTC access to Plan B, the whole issue would go away, and fundamentalists (I'm not tagging you with that label, because women trust you enough to come to you when they're suffering) will have to find some other drum to pound.
This is why I don't really fight a time cap on it, excluding medical problems. My sister ran into problems with one of her pregnancies and an abortion should have been a choice on the table for her at a late term because the baby had severe developmental problems that would have required immediate surgery and ICU care for months after birth had the child made it. The dipshit doctors and insurance people told her not to bother with early exams and it was only when she was abnormally large that they did tests to figure out the baby was already in danger. I am sorry, but I cannot endorse forcing a mother who knows her child is going to require huge amounts of resources and medical care to go down that road if it is discovered in the womb. I do not say have an abortion either, but I would leave that choice to the family and it is not mine or anyone else's. Advice is one thing, but if you are not going to be involved in any way in the family's life you need to STFU and let them decide. I am also not for having @Dayton3 and his anti-choice terrorists hound and harass a family in such a position. I think the present system of 24 weeks along with late term options for medical problems with the mother or child is the appropriate place for it. If you cannot make the decision to terminate in 24 weeks then maybe you should consider other alternatives over abortion.
the impossibility here, though, is sorting out internalized propaganda from actual natural feelings. As an analogy, if a young man comes to you and says " I am attracted to men and i hate myself for it" - does he feel that way naturally (the self-hatred) or because his culture has indoctrinated him to feel that way? You may guess, I have some experience with this.
I'd wonder if there are men seeking counseling for convincing or pushing their girlfriends/wives into getting an abortion. Given mens general support for abortion when it affects their personal lives I'd guess the number is staggeringly low.
Is this another myth @Shirogayne ? In Virginia we have a governor who supports infanticide. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/virginia-governor-defends-letting-infants-die/
Do you seriously think those last minute abortions are performed just for fun, you absolute fucking retard?
Last minute abortions? The governor is talking about after delivery, that’s straight up murder. Or do you believe, “ it’s a woman’s body” after the baby is born still a valid argument?
‘Even there of course there’s regret’? Is there really? The only regret my wife has ever expressed is regret at being young and dumb and being put in the place where she needed an abortion. To this day she thinks it is one of the easiest and best decisions of her life. And *GASP* she ‘still’ (just to be clear that was sarcasm) manages to be a fucking awesome Mom to the two kids she/we decided to have and loves them to pieces. I for one am eternally grateful for her abortion. Without it she wouldn’t have been able to go back to school, get a kick ass tech job, meet fucking Prince Charming, aka No. 1 Stud, and wouldn’t have been able to give me the life of my dreams. WHICH I AM LIVING RIGHT NOW. Which explains why I’m not just pro-choice, but actively pro-abortion and donate funds monthly to help women in shithole states afford to travel to civilization and take care of their health needs. B/c the love and happiness my family has shouldn’t be constrained to those lucky enough to live in Blue States.
