"Abortion isn't a religious issue"

"Abortion isn't a religious issue" says LA Times op-ed

This could probably be merged with another thread here eventually, but I though I'd see how it did alone first...

LA Times op-ed: Abortion isn't a religious issue: "Evangelicals are adamant, but religion really has nothing to say about the issue".

NPR interview with the piece's author.

Some highlights:

He also mentions in the NPR interview that, why some religious philosophers believed a "soul" was infused a conception, many didn't think God gave humans a soul until the moment of *birth*.

I just want to also point out that you dont' have to be religious to have problems with the ethics of abortion.

I can name at least 1/2 a dozen atheists I know personally - myself included - who are uncomfortable with abortion. And become more uncomfortable with it, the more developed the fetus becomes.

And neither would never get one themselves, or be happy if their spouse did.

But most of us agree that early on, before a fetus has a fully developed nervous system, the decision should be left up to the mother.

Except that pro-life belief has its origins in Christianity based on "thou shalt not kill (or murder if you love semantic arguments)" as well as using that "I knew thee in the womb" verses that the pro-lifers love to throw around to no end. So yes, it is a religious issue. All they're doing is trying to take Christianity out of the picture, which only illustrates their own prejudice against it.

Bullshit. The stigma against murder predates its codification in the Torah. Religion has nothing intrinsically to do with it.

Like hell it doesn't. The pro-life's movements originate with Christians and Christianitry.

Tasking religion out of it just reveals a person's own prejudices agains Christianity.

Restating your bullshit won't make it any less bullshit.
Do you deny that murder was frowned upon before the Ten Commandments?

The author addressed that in the NPR interview...for it to be murder, you have to be killing a person.

And as he points out, there's nothing in the Bible stating when personhood begins.

Right. That there were laws that did outlaw murder under specific circumstances long before the Bible, and does not define specific personhood and so a Christian must state that life begins at conception, which originates with the Catholic Church. But that isn't the argument, the argument is where does the origins of the pro-life ideals come from and whether or not they're religious in nature. They are. Plus there were no organised pro-life groups until after Roe vs Wade.

it doesnt HAVE to be a religious issue if people dont make it one. i was once atheist and i was against abortion. im not pro-life...but im not comfortable with it...it simply depends on who you are and where your views stand. a lot of times, religion IS brought into it...but when it comes to the government..it isnt..and shouldnt be a religious issue....its not them being prejudice...with that, you are simply reading way too far into it.

Justlee - You said that the origins or pro-life were in "thou shalt not kill". You're incorrect.

To Happiebunny:

No it doesn't, but credit should be given where credit is due.

Regardless of one's own personal prejudices.

Just because somebody doesn't like where something they like comes from just doesn't magically negate that fact.

Right, just because you want me to be.

No, you're incorrect because your statment was false.

did he say that? i dont think that was said, JUSTLEE. im just sayin.

Nope, yours is.

Yes Hb, he's letting his own prejudices get in the way and can not understand that the origins of the pro-life movement started with Christians who were angry at Roe vs Wade.

well...it doesnt HAVE to be a religious issue.


see...im really bad at this debate thing..cause i see EVERYONES view on it. i just wish other people would be just as open minded about things.

wow, I never thought I'd see the day where HenryHill pwned another WF and not the other way around.

he didnt "pwn" anyone...i win.

Nope I'm the winner here. I win all the time and so much so that people get so angry their hair turns white and they frotha t the mouth.

Oh noes! I told a joke!

OH MY GOD I TOLD A JOKE AIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

Patently, inherently wrong. A sad misinterpretation.

If abortion is murder then it's covered under "thou shalt not murder". Period.

While it's true that there was a lot of ignorance over the point at which the spirit enters the body (at conception, at birth, etc.), there still is. It's not ever really made clear in the scriptures. A lot of the religious pro-life argument revolves around the uncertainty. Because we're dealing with a human life and we don't know then we must err on the side of caution and say that life begins at conception.

Why not really be safe and say that every sperm is sacred?

A sperm is like a lego. It only forms something when it is joined with another object.

Then we must never kill anyone under any circumstances no matter what.

In fact, that is the exact message that Christ taught, that we should not harm our fellow man even in self defense.

I find this idea to be totally laughable, as do most others in this world. But it is definitely the doctrine of Jesus.

Of course, Christianity is so popular because the Bible has enough vague and sometimes conflicting rules throughout the OT and NT that people can just pick out whatever they like.

If life begins at conception, then since the majority of fertilized eggs don't even implant, just pass out (2/3rds iirc) God sure set up an inefficient reproductive system, where 2/3rds of soul imbued humans die right away.

So much for "intelligent design".

Do all these souls go to Heaven too?

A fertilized egg only forms something if it's given the proper environment to grow in.

Because sperm by itself is not human life.

If God can create people out of clay, why does he need humans to be pregnant?

Kill and murder are two different things. That's why the word in the 10 Commandments is really "murder" and there are quite detailed instructions on how and when to punish the crime.

I would gladly trade capital punishment for abortion, though. Life in prison for the worst criminals is pretty tough.

If I remember correctly, it's because adam and eve pissed him off.