D3, the Ukraine Box Set

I don't think they had reliable national crime statistics back then so that would be hard to prove.

They would also rebut the concept that weak family values are the number one cause of social problems in the U.S.

The Great Depression brought a rapid rise in the crime rate as many unemployed workers resorted to petty theft to put food on the table. Suicide rates rose, as did reported cases of malnutrition. Prostitution was on the rise as desperate women sought ways to pay the bills.

YRI (that's You Recall Incorrectly) -- see Garamet's post.

Therefore:

No.

Yeah, but that was caused by the war on alcohol, which (unlike the war on drugs) is a reasonable explanation for social ills, right Dayton?

Yeah, but bigger picture, Dayton has pegged crime rate as the barometer for what is driving those social ills. If that's the case, then what ever that driving force is, has been on the decrease over the past several decades.

Does there have to be one primary cause?

IIRC that was mainly during prohibition. In the 1920s mainly.

I mentioned crime rates because

1) I think it is a barometer of social ills that most can agree on.
2) It is something that government agencies have tried to track for a long time.

And yet you consider premarital sex to be the "greater crime."

I'd still like to know whether Alan Keyes claims he never had premarital sex or he just feels entitled to dictate to everyone else.

I consider the breakdown of the basic family unit to the the primary cause of most all social ills.

I consider premarital sex to be the underlying cause of the breakdown of the basic family unit.
Now, I freely acknowledge that in the United States at least, even in the most conservative times, most Americans had had sex before marriage (about 70% back in the day as opposed to 95% now if I recall the numbers from google correctly).

But from what I've read, in more conservative times there was a fundamental difference in the practice of premarital sex during more conservative times.

Being

1) Despite engaging it it, a majority considered it morally wrong and expressed disapproval.
2) People married earlier so they had far fewer sex partners on the average than in this day and age.
3) A large number of those who did have premarital sex in more conservative times did so EXCLUSIVELY with the person they were going to marry. Basically sexually exclusive despite the premarital nature of it. Which means no future basis for comparisons.

So essentially "I know this is wrong but I'm doing it anyway" and "Do as I say, not as I do." Great moral code you guys have there.

But what social ills has that caused?

Failure to perfectly follow a moral code does not mean that having a moral code is bad Garamet.

Sure some people are very cynically hypocritical, but for many people it is simply a matter of adopting high ideals and values but that they violate because they are human and prone to human error and failings.

Just because a person is human and vulnerable to human error and failings does not mean they should follow the lowest possible moral code just because the MIGHT violate it.

I do not understand the question?

Well there can't be two primary causes.

I don't disagree that crime rate is a good barometer, it's just that that barometer has been showing social ills on the decrease for 20 or 30 years. If you believe that damaged traditional families are the root cause of social ills, then wouldn't that indicate traditional families have been strengthening over the same amount of time?

Depends of course.

Arguably crime rates have also been going down because of

1) More effective law enforcement (yes, including the much maligned practice of incarceration).
2) More effective medical services that effectively turned what would've been murders 40 years ago into aggravated assaults today.

I'll freely admit that the method of defining "social ills" is immensely complicated. For example, divorce rates. Some people see higher divorce rates as bad (as I do).

Others see them as a good indicator because it means (to them) that people are not stuck in unhappy marriages, no longer stigmatized by society, or financially able to divorce.

So I tried to stick with crime rates.

It's pretty amazing we're here at the height of civilization despite all the pre-marital sex.

Saying we're at the "height of civilization" based on what?

Pre-marital sex is the best kind.

Your circular reasoning that premarital sex is a social ill caused by premarital sex is unimpressive.

You either can't be serious or pine for the days of having a woman solely in the kitchen, getting your water from a well and boiling it when you're thirsty and having your kids infected with polio.

I grew up in the 1970s. I assure you that polio was not an issue, my mother worked hard both at home and when needed elsewhere, and we did not have to boil water.

Irrelevant.

Prove it.

No u.

So you're sticking with a barometer that shows the opposite of what you believe to be true?

The U.S. reportedly is sending 6 F-15s to Lithuania and 12 F-16s to Poland (the latter for an exercise) plus the U.S.S. Truxton (Burke class destroyer) is on its way to the Black Sea (reportedly for a previously scheduled exercise.

Not much, not nearly enough but of course better than nothing. Sending a full wing of aircraft to both Lithuania and Poland and half a dozen ships to the Black Sea would be better.

More battles! Will somebody hand Dayton the box of tissues?