Defund the Police

fuck'em all

So...ACAB and "fuck em' all" but there's no broad brushing or anything! I'd love to be a fly on the wall when someday...it could be years but it's going to happen... anyone who says these things might actually need a cop's assistance.

I hope the cops return the sentiment.

was it the beating a black man for not resisting or the murder of the dog that you support?

For someone who was in the Army you have a strange sense of the word "duty". It's their damn job. They don't get to pick and choose who to help.

It's that fucking mindset that causes half these problems in the first place. They either see civilians as the enemy or as sheep who don't like the sheepdog because they don't understand it's protecting them from the wolf, and it sorta looks like a wolf.

Only these days some sheepdogs ARE tearing the throats outta the sheep and need taking away from the farm.

or maybe I think of cops as people. As a person if someone says "fuck you" and "you're a bastard" would you be enthusiastic about helping them? As a teacher/doctor/plumber/etc. etc?
But of course somebody of your great intellect and moral superiority would never even consider being a cop or join the military. You are above all that.

As for the first sentence - have you ever been in a situations where you've even had to demonstrate dedication to "duty" that involves life and death? You don't have a fucking clue about my mindset.
You can assume and mock point and laugh and ride your moral high horse off into the sunset - whatever.

Honest question, and one I'm not going to be offended at a non response to, but were you ever aware of abuses committed by your colleagues?

How did you deal with that situation?

Fortunately in my unit there were no abuses. But before you say "but there were people in the military in other units who committed abuses" let me flip the script:
In your profession have there ever been abuses by other members of your profession even though your colleagues and yourself never committed any? And if there were abuses would they make the news?

So you're agreeing that this police force is unlikely to do its job in the future?

I do report abuses in my profession. Not only in mine, but other professions within my company. We have a code of conduct and we have 'best business practices' that everyone has to follow. And I do call out people who try to take shortcuts that go against the code of conduct and are definitely not best business practice.

The difference is, bad data analysts seldom kill people while "just doing their job". Which makes police and military even that much more accountable for their co-workers. Your argument make zero sense.

Well, no wonder you had to resort to the weapon, then!

rock might beat scissors, but...

Abuses in healthcare not making the news? Hello, what rock did you crawl out from under?

Yes and yes, there have been some horrific cases down the years and frankly we have seen abuse cultures develop at times within hospital and (moreso) care settings. I wasn't, however, talking about the news. Didn't mention it at all in fact.

I asked about what you did or didn't do with that knowledge (if any).

In answer to your question I've been involved in a number of abuse allegations as both witness and accuser, I've no problem confronting people directly first and you'd be surprised how conflict averse I really am not in such a situation. There's little in life I detest more than seeing someone abuse a position of power. I've also been an advocate in people's defence in such situations as a union rep, which in the current context is possibly a detrimental admission. People can be disciplined and losing your job is very easy, not to mention that (unlike the US police, apparently) healthcare staff can lose their license to practise and even be blacklisted from even being allowed to work in any healthcare setting in any capacity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterbourne_View_hospital_abuse

This case in particular led to a significant national review of control and restraint procedures and exactly what kind of services can justify using them at all - I was actually involved at trust level in our own response to the rulings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Hospital_scandal

This also made the news, but frankly both represent the tip of the iceberg. The NMC maintains a publicly accessible record of nursing and healthcare staff whose licenses have been suspended or revoked along with a summary of the events and investigations and frankly it's a really, really long list.

@spot261 raises an interesting point: How many here would be willing to start an "All Doctors Are Bastards" meme?

Oh, they really are

And protests, looting and rioting was a result? What rock did you crawl out from under?

Okay you're not getting it. I'm talking actual murder not just "abuse". Yes doctors have literally murdered patients. So ADAB (all doctors are bastards) and "fuck all doctors"?

Generally no, for exactly the reasons given. Robust systems of accountability are required when changing an abuse culture. Those systems have been utterly inadequate to the task in one case but not the other (at least after a lot of very public scrutiny).

ACAB is probably unfair in many regards, but I'm trying to explain that it isn't about individuals. It's about whether the systems in place are sufficient to the task of challenging those cultures, which is why I asked you about your experiences in the military. My point is it's no good saying it's just about a few bad apples letting the side down, it's about asking some very demanding questions of what the organisation does with those bad apples and how that influences the behaviour of their peers. Do those peers challenge or report that behaviour? Are they confident doing so? Do they feel that they are betraying their colleagues if they do or fear retribution? Do they turn a blind eye or (worse) find themselves drawn into the very same behaviour?

See my post above. The medical profession has gone to great lengths to deal with such behaviours (and in medicine the difference between abuse and murder is frequently vague btw).

The US police have not gone to the same lengths in enacting or enforcing such policies, they have allowed rogue officers to keep dodging accountability, to work again in other forces when they do lose their jobs and allowed a bunker mentality to develop where offices will put each other's interests before those of the public.

Doctors can and do get sued for negligence. Cops, at worst, get time off with pay. If they're fired, they still get their pension. So ..., yea, not the same thing.

Assuming anything happens at all and superiors don't just turn a blind eye.

two words: police unions

Hence the OP.

two words: police union

Three words: hence the OP

What about them?

Police unions do seem to have undue influence if that's what you are suggesting, I agree their nature and relationship to the forces need to be looked at very closely, but simply pointing the finger at unions doesn't absolve those forces of responsibility for the way they deal with the public. Even with the unions in play abuse cultures to the extent we are seeing shouldn't be allowed to develop.

Unions should act to protect the rights of their members, not give them immunity from the consequences of wrong doing and those consequences can only be enforced when people operate in a culture which enables, supports and protects those who blow the whistle. There need to be very robust procedures in place, but there also needs to be a situation where individuals feel safe, confident and willing to act on them.

Just as I'd stop quite far short of declaring all cops are bastards I'd also stop short of advocating for abolishing unions.

"All cops are voluntary conspirators part of a fundamentally racist system of class oppression lacking in public accountability" doesn't really make for a quick acronym, let alone a catchy tune.

Thought you were bit of a musician on the side? Surely you could find a way to make it work?

nope... only old guard punk rocker in Kensington Market to never have been in a band. (although, I do work that into my pick up small talk like its a negative HPV screening)

even were I so inclined, covering the ultimate overly played Oi! tune would never have been my thing