Flow's Fantastic Fixer-Upper

All our cabinets are made out of melamine, and I wouldn't say that they are 'cheap.' You never see the 'white' part except when you open the inside. We use finished or applied ends depending on the layout.

Frameless is very popular these days. For customers that want something stronger and lighter, we use pre-laq birch plywood.

We use 5/8'' for everything, including the back. Everything is doweled and screwed together.

I don't think any of our customers will ever say that our cabinets are cheap. If anything they recommend us because it is a lot stronger than what our competition offers.

Oh now see, you got all offended and there was no reason for that.

Just going by thirty plus years of cabinet making man. I've been at this a hell of a long time. We weren't "cheap" either.



Nah, you misunderstand, I was comparing melamine to wood and really, come on, it is cheaper not only to build but for longevity. It can't stand up agaist wood in certian environments. That's all I was saying.

I've built / installed them for million dollar homes and for mom and pop / multi million dollar stores. it is what it is. As long as it remains in a clmate controlled environment they last. Get them wet you're fucked.

Besides, I prefer dove grey melamine for my interiors.

CABINET FIGHT!!!!!!

I love how their posts are countering each other.

Well obviously solid wood will be stronger in an situation. I'm just saying that we have never had problems with our cabinets being 'cheap' or falling apart, and we've used the 5/8'' melamine for 15 years. The European style face frame cabinet isn't very popular around here I think, so most people go with the frameless, but not all cabinet shops use the 5/8'' back which really solidifies the cabinet. Most use 1/4'' or nothing at all even, and compared to them our cabinet is a lot stronger obviously.

We easily get 15-20 years life span out of our kitchens.

And again, I'm not saying you shouldn't go with solid wood. I'm just giving you my opinion on the situation. I would prefer that the Flows have all the information they need. Going to a showroom can be a bit mind-boggling if you don't know what you're walking into.

Here are some examples of a kitchen we did recently to show the frameless style. Going to a few shows in the States the past few years, I noticed it wasn't really that popular.

Excuse the crappy pictures. I was in a hurry and I have a crappy phone.

The interior material is pre-laq birch plywood. So a hell of a lot stronger than melamine. I would put it up there as being pretty much equal to any kind of solid wood. The downside is that it tends to warp more easily. But if the kitchen is cut by the CNC, and put through the line and shipped out within a couple weeks it shouldn't be much of a problem.

The doors are maple, with some kind of special bevel on the edge. The finish is off-white with a glaze. Not that popular as it tends to be way more expensive. Requires about 12 hours of hand wiping per normal sized kitchen unless you have a machine. Finishing it like that with a machine is unlikely though.

The middle picture shows a 'lazy susan' or a corner cabinet. Notice you don't see the hinges, unless you open it. Not sure if that is a problem for you, but most customers don't seem to mind. Everything is soft-closing, including the drawer slides. As in if you slam it, it'll stop about 2 inches out, and slowly close by itself. Like hydraulic stop on each hinge or slide.

I'll try to get more pictures later on today of the construction and finish in our shop. Just to give you an idea of what you're looking at.

Couple more pictures during assembly.





Just an idea of how some shops mount the hardware. Those are soft closing drawer slides by Blum, and I would highly recommend them for quality and the fact that they just work. We replace a grand total of maybe 10 slides PER year, out of thousands. The hinge plates are pretty standard and fit with all Blum style hinges. For the actual soft-closing Blum hinge, we have a replaced a grand total of 'zero' in the past 3 years we have used them. They were a bit late to the all in one hinge soft-closing game, but as usual they had a superior product. I got a chance to tour the Blum factory in Austria this past year, and I was seriously impressed. And as a friendly bet I made a deal with one of the big shots that if I can find 10 soft closing hinges that are/go kaput at any process over the next 5 years, he'll make sure we get free hinges for a year. Sadly, my bet is failing, as I can't seem to even find one, and now I'll have to buy him dinner next time I'm there on business for my other job.

All our cabinet parts are cut by a CNC, so everything is precise to within the MM.

I really think the construction of the cabinet is a big deal in terms of longevity. A few months ago I was invited on a tour of a big cabinet shop in the city here, and I took a bunch of pictures of their extremely crappy style cabinet. It is a night and day difference.

A CNC machine.

Ya, well hey, ....



Delta Unisaw, six foot fence extentions.

Accurate within whatever I set the blade at, and if I use a cut list and cut it in the correct order I can get my stuff within a 32nd only because of blade flex.

Just not as fast.

Nice stuff there by the way.

Okay, define 'frameless'? Are just saying assembled from modular components?

Basically you take whatever you choose to be the interior of your cabinet, and all the parts are cut from a sheet of whatever material that is, and then assembled. Basically you'll have your two side gables where the hardware is mounted, a base bottom, rails(the 4 smaller parts in the picture above), and the back. Usually everything is made from the same material, although some companies use a smaller size back. The exposed edge is usually edge-banded to match the exterior color of the kitchen. On the boxes above, the doors are pre-finished doors made from prestige maple, so prestige maple edge banding is used, and it just happens to match really closely to the actual material.

I wouldn't call frameless modular in the sense that you can't really replace a certain part once the box has been assembled, but at any point before then you can. Each part is separately cut.

As to "framed" types, that refers to a face frame built of a particular style and type of wood using stiles, and this assembly in turn is attached to a box similarly built as the frameless design utilizes.

For instance, take the door attachments, on a frameless design they attach to the sides of the cabinet and on a framed variety they attach to the face frame, or front as they are called.

The amount of reveal around the door that is seen comes in three types more or less. Frameless utilize one which usually is set to cover all but a fraction of the edged of the sides which have an edge band of the desired effect be it wood or color, and the framed/front type utilize the other two, one is called stanard which allows more of the frame to be seen and full overlay which shows a minimum of frame to focus on the doors.

The box portion of framed cabinets are made pretty much the same as frameless are design wise and a front is attached to the box. Usually the focus is on the face frame and doors with a plethora of wood types, colors, finishes, and styles of profiles. Doors are the focus with flat paneled and raised paneled and some types of doors have an arch or cathedral cut to the centers. These are almost always on raised panel doors.

Unless custom built, there are standard sizes of width, height and depth varying slightly that are used in a combination to acheave the desired size requirement and any acess space is filled using a filler of the same type used in the frames. Architects and designers will plan their work using these definative sizes and use the components, or individual cabinets, to fill said spaces.

Framed types can be serviced should the face frame become damaged by replacing the front, or cfo, (cabinet front only). Doors are replaceable on both.

So what I would love to have are the accordion style patio doors for two sides of the sunroom we are enclosing...(the doors would move all to one side of the room and not be noticed) however I've been priced at 21,000 (from jeld-wen) for one set and that's the short set.

This will work. It will accordion both ways but you take what you can get if it's a 1/4 the price. What do you all think?

Go with the Anderson units if they'll suit your purpose, they're fine doors and the qualty and warranties are exceptional in my opinion. They're a nice choice.

Anderson makes a folding set as well. Have you checked into those?

I did not see there folding set but will look further, thanks.

Good point and definitely something I am thinking about.

We are at an impasse do we

a) rip out the Sheetrock that was under the paneling or
b) go over it with 1/4 rock

Discuss.

Also remember cost. It's nothing for us to tear out sheetrock and dispose of it, that's an afternoon activity. Would it be more expensive to have it rocked in 1/2in as compared to 1/4in or would that be negligible? Would it be cheaper to have all of the previously paneled walls mudded instead?

Personally, I have a tendency to go to bare studs and reinsulate with a fresh load of OC pink, especially if the walls are filled with cellulose or that old nasty rockwool insulation.

To remud them it could be a teadeous adventure if the paper on the rock is torn from adheasives for the paneling job. Any breaks in the paper can be a bitch because it will wrinkle up and it's a fight easily avoided if the capitol is available to just redo the walls.

It gives you a chance to see what's in the wall and clean out any critters or their remnants, maybe run some electrical outlets or even some data cables. It would also give the opportunity to make a flat wall if the studs are bowed or mixed in their crowning.
Then you could slap a new load of 1/2" on it and have a fresh slate for the mudman.

Flow is on a tractor but this is mostly what he and I have been talking about for the kitchen.

Some of the changes to the house that have been occurring over the last little while.

Before


After we took out the dark enclosing cabinets, but the picture is taken from the North wall instead of the south.




Before


After South wall


North wall

We do know that the floors are going to be stained concrete and the drywall guys come in a few weeks to go over the walls. Flow is putting in new outlets and is wiring for the speaker system.

Our question is what do you guys think of the layout of the kitchen cabinets? Anything you think we need to add or move? We will probably go with the shaker style cabinets. Light in color but with brown undertones. Dark floor and counter top.

We like this but we are more than likely going to switch it up with the teal green/blue being the accent rather than the wood tones.

I like this floor


Flow likes this one more

I favor the teal.

I'll try on the plans they don't seem to blow up well.

Utility room stays, as we use it differently than most. Flow needs room.

Fridge does go to the east wall.

Yes we are going to more of a galley kitchen with a table in the middle.

And that is why I favor lighter cabinets here. A dark floor with light cabinets and darker counters.

I agree w/ Flow on the floor, but they're both cool.

Okay, had some tentative kitchen plans drawn up...

West wall, with window and the sink below.


This is the south and east wall, the hood will be wood, not that 1950's oven vent. There should also be more counter and wall space between the south wall and the vertical pantry/fridge. All things are not to scale.


And finally her 'pantry' on the north wall. On the left is a broom closet and some pull out shelving, in the middle is the appliance garage with enclosed with the roll up you'd see on an old roll top desk.

Making her use a washtub?