Give me liberty or give me health!

I don't have anything to add, I just thought it apropos ...

I'll take Liberty.

Easy to say without any real details. For example, just how much "liberty" are you unwilling to compromise on and just how much "health" are you willing to risk? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't rather die than be forced to pay for health insurance, for example.

You're going to die anyway. Better to die on your feet today than to live on your knees for another couple decades.

Give me a bunker or WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are you such a University of Michigan fan?

One can have both. The barrier to that is black Jesus and his Chicago political upbringing.

Uhm, actually, yeah I would. However, there is no reason I wouldn't CHOOSE to buy health insurance. I don't want to be FORCED to at the point of the IRS's guns.

In all seriousness, if you truly feel that way, I guess you're not long for this world, given what has transpired. I have enjoyed reading your fiction.

Ah, dkehler, typical sheep mentality. "Give me liberty or give me death" did not mean "Since King George won't give us what we want, I'll kill myself." It meant "I'm going to fight for what I believe in and I'll continue to fight until I get it or I'm killed."

Baa, I mean, bah!

Yeah. So you think we are going to see an armed upraising against this? Really? How long should we hold our breaths for that?

Health.

Everyone has the right to healthy food.

Restaurants are too expensive.

The government should take over all restaurants,
and charge people based on their ability to pay.

There are plenty of rich people who can pay for my food.

And they should deliver.

I'll let somebody else talk of this one, if they have some time to waste, but let's just say that creating analogies is not your strong suit.

I totally disagree.

The government shouldn't charge anyone, period. Food is even more necessary for life than health care. With a little luck, you won't need any serious health care more than once every few years, but you need food every day.

So it should be a right, provided for everyone, equally, by a benevolent government. Nobody should be allowed to make money, or charge money, for providing the very necessity of life.

(And don't say the government couldn't afford it. Between positive energy, Santa's elves and unicorn farts, it can all be provided, so that no one will ever suffer from want.)

[YT="Not far enough!"]h45WnW0ASFY[/YT]

Don't tell me you've never heard of food banks and soup kitchens, etc. In Canada at least, if somebody needs food/shelter, they can certainly get it, whether they have money or not. So yes, food most definitely is a basic human right and is treated as such in Canada.

How many food banks and soup kitchens are publicly funded?

All the major ones I'm finding are charitable organizations...

Seriously, when you're in a major city next time, go into all the major food banks, shelters and soup kitchens and ask them how much public funding they get.

Its less than 10%.

True, but then you get into the whole social assistance/welfare thing. That some people irresponsibly choose not to use it for basic necessities like food does not negate the fact that that is what it is supposed to be used for.

Hey you brought it up.

Fact is that food is a basic need, shelter is a basic need....and both these things are provided for to the poor and needy by PRIVATE organizations.

I'm not saying healthcare is the same way, as I do believe in a two-tiered system. Just saying that the apparent evil 'free market' does a lot of good too.

There are a lot of rich people that donate a LOT of money to charities.

How much liberty am I willing to compromise? Not much.

Do I want to die? Not really, but God gives us what he gives us. I was a fairly heavy smoker for years until the e-cig. I expect to die of lung cancer. It wouldn't surprise me if I've already got it. In the meantime, I'll make the most of every minute that I've got.

One thing I won't be is a burden to my family or my fellow citizens.

Look, we can't afford the social programs that we've already got: Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc. How are we going to pay for the $800 billion Obamacare bill?

There's the bottom line: somebody has to pay for it. It's not free. The economy is in the shitter, we've got record unemployment, tax revenue is down, the government is running around giving out stimulus checks that aren't stimulating anything substantial, and bailing out banks and GM for their mistakes and piss poor management. A year ago, we were only $3 trillion in debt. Now we're $12 trillion in debt, in the midst of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, and the bill for this healthcare thing hasn't even started to hit us yet.

On top of that, Obamacare does not address the hairballs that clogged up the health care system and made it inefficient and overly expensive in the first place. In fact, it's just going to stuff more hairballs down the drain.

There was never a good time for a bill like this, but Obama and the Dems picked the absolute WORST time to do it.

But the health care bill will create jobs. I mean what employer doesn't want to hire more people when they know it will cost them more in increased taxes??

The bolded part really makes me wonder what you must think of me.

The rest of the, well it may be "true", I happen to think that healthcare should be one of the highest priorities for tax dollars, so whatever it costs, it costs. Try to make it as efficient as it can be, of course, but there are many things that I would cut before healthcare. You don't agree. I get that. Never the twain shall meet.

I think of you as a good friend. I'm not without compassion: quite the opposite. My choice is what I would do or not do for me.

I'm all for helping people to help themselves. Trouble here in the USSA is that we've created a nightmarish system that discourages people from trying to help themselves or succeed. Why get out there and bust your ass for a living when the gubmint will take care of you? Why use birth control when you can have a baby and get a bigger gubmint check? Why run your bank or auto factory in an efficient and profitable manner when Uncle Sam will bail you out?

I'm pleased that you think of me as a good friend. Likewise. You had me worried there for a minute.

Of course, I'm right there with you with respect to abuse of social programs, but where we differ is in our estimation of the amount of abusers. There are many, many people out there that have enough pride in themselves to only use such programs for their intended purpose, that being, as you said, to help one help oneself. I just don't agree with the idea of forsaking those good people to somehow punish the abusers or make sure that no one can get something for nothing.

I, on the other hand, would be digging for your organs like a Ferrengi in a Risian cave.

Yeah, I know the organ of mine you want ...

Experience has soured the milk from the tit of human kindness for me. Working in health care, I see what Medicaid and Welfare has done to the character of the American people. These programs didn't just lower the bar; they blew it through the floor. People like free stuff. Or at least free in the sense they're not the ones having to pay for it.

Politicians like to give away free stuff. At least free in the sense they're not the ones paying for it either. It gets votes and votes keep politicians in jobs.

As I said earlier, I'm all for helping people who can't help themselves, but "mission creep", being part of human nature, means these social programs soon get out of control and you soon wind up with a sigificant portion of the population who WON'T help themselves, WON'T exercise responsibility, and WON't try to better themselves because they don't have to.

Alot of us, myself included, see these programs as "socialist" or "communist" in part because, human nature being what it is, one of the traits they all have in common is that they remove the initiative to be productive or to improve yourself.