How to Discombobulate Your Libertarian Friends

Are you saying that because social programs are sometimes abused that they should not be available for the people that need them? Because I'm right with you with respect to getting abusers off the system because they hurt everyone. But as I've said many times before, I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater at the expense of people who through no fault of their own require assistance to be able to exist.

That's also good logic against proposing a mass gun grab every time someone abuses the 2nd

I can live with that.

I lurk here all the time, but I rarely will post anything unless I have something to say, or if the issue being discussed relates in some way to my own life.

I was just thinking about this today. The reason: I saw one of those old city buses, where you have to climb on three steps to get in. Then I thought about how nowadays, buses all are really low to the ground, and even have those hydraulic things where the bus can go even LOWER so that the handicapped person can get in easier.

I thought about how, if we were living under a libertarian system, the handicapped would not be able to get on the bus, because it would just not be feasible to spend way more on a special hydraulic-lift bus than just a regular bus.

But then, if that were the case, someone would've probably invented a wheelchair stair climber by now, so that those in wheelchairs could also climb the steps. Sure, it would be expensive and cost a fortune at first, but over time, the manufacturing costs would go down, so that pretty much anyone in a wheelchair could get into the bus. (And if the cost didn't, competition would come in and make sure it did.) Plus, most people in wheelchairs would probably be able to climb any stairs by now if this technology were invented.

But because the government stepped in and mandated that all buses have to be wheelchair accessible, we are spending way more on special buses, and the handicapped still can't go on the old ones.

So this is a case of how the government getting involved actually stifles innovation and makes life WORSE for those they were trying to help in the first place.

Is there really a competitive mass market out there for wheelchairs Scorp?

The problem here is that you're using a very simplistic model for a very complex system. There are all kinds of factors at play in the market that affect costs.

I'll give you a real world example. I work for a wholesaler. There's one particular product we used to sell a ton of at a very low price. The system worked much like you described above. Yet over the last year the price we charge has increased over 300%. The problem (among many other things) is that its main component is gold whose price per ounce has absolutely skyrocketed.

All the price increases have depressed the market for the item. Our customers certainly aren't earning 3x more than they did a year ago and they couldn't get away with raising their prices nearly that much in a tight market. The economies of mass production practically disappeared over night.

That's not to say this would happen in your scenario or even in most scenarios but that the market is large and complex and can't be relied on to work by simple laws.

You honestly don't know why this is?

As to the original point of the thread -- good lord. I never tire of people who don't know what libertarianism is creating straw men and then declaring victory over the straw armies.



Look, you people aren't fooling anyone. You want the state to cover your losses and tend your wounds and wipe your butt and make sure you neighbor doesn't do that one thing that you can't stand. You're afraid of self-discipline, afraid of responsibility, and afraid of the idea that either you go it alone or else you are responsible for building your own network of friends and supporters. You're afraid of the big bad man down the street who has more money than you and you think a level playing field means everyone has to share in your misery. You don't want equality before the law, you want equality of outcome. Taken to your logical extreme, you want equality of income.

You want to meddle in everyone else's business and you deny it. You lie about your intentions and claim a halo for your dishonesty. Don't meddle in the bedroom, you say, but it's perfectly okay to snoop through my wallet and my boardroom. Don't take my guns, you cry, but don't let the guy down the street buy marijuana or practice law without a stamp from the government. Please inspect everything I ingest and buy and borrow because I can't be bothered to do my own due diligence, and bail me out whenever I get in over my head.

Oh, you're for capitalism as long as it serves your idea of what a community is, or the greater good, but in the end whatever side of the spectrum you're on, you bow down before the god of the State and live like a parasite off the work of productive people.

Well fuck off.

Liberty works precisely because it takes into account that some men are criminal in nature, and it punishes them. It works because it leaves people free to pursue their own desires and make their own mistakes and make their own fortunes. No, it won't pick you up or wipe your nose -- it leaves you free to do it. And if you're so worried about the guy next to you who can't wipe his nose -- you do it. No one says you can't cooperate or help others -- you just can't force your neighbor to give you a hand if he doesn't want to.

Left and right, all I see is people decrying liberty as if it were unworkable, when the reality is they're scared. They're scared of people realizing what hypocrites they are. Liberals and conservatives both claim the window dressing of freedom in their PR material but make no mistake, they despise liberty. And so when people come along singing a real song about liberty, they are desperate to shut them up.

Ever wonder why Republicans and Democrats try so hard to silence and marginalize libertarians, even though we hardly ever get 2 percent of national votes? Because both sides are losing popularity and numbers even as the population grows. Their old two-sided lie leaves most too disgusted to vote. Their sham propaganda is being thrown aside and people are starting to actually read what the Constitution means. Or even far better -- they're just starting to ignore government because it's such a useless thing.

Hell -- why else do you think the Dems and Republicans want to legalize all those ignorant Mexican illegals? More voters for the gravy train who, like most two party loyalist, don't have a real clue what classical liberalism and original intent are.

Every screed I see against liberty is just another death rattle from the machine. Every irrational straw man attack is just one more indicator of the desperation of the two party hacks, the Keynsians, the soft socialists and the security statists.

Fine by me. Here's the trick -- we don't need you. Until such time as we undo your little soft socialism, we've gotten quite good at getting around your laws. We're generally successful in whatever field we enter, and we're pretty good at hiding our income and evading your taxes. Yeah, you think your business regulations and taxes mean a lot? How's that regulation against marijuana coming? Dope off the streets yet? How about all those laws you have against certain kinds of guns? Think we don't have networks around those? Think you can really tell me who I can and can't hire? Think we don't have ways against your laws and limits and regulations?

Yeah, the prohibitionists thought they'd beaten alcohol when they passed the law back in the 1920s.

We don't need to create some single Galt's Gulch -- we each create our own and build our own little pockets of freedom.

But you keep believing, state worshipper.

STORM FOR PRESIDENT!!

Dunno 'bout that. He'll have some pretty stiff competition from the incumbent.

Speaking of.


*Looks at sparking fingertips*
That easy.
Nothing can stop me now.
Unlimited power.

Yeah, you pwned him, right there!

Storm, any chance you could run for President?

Sorry, Storm, I suddenly saw your post in 3-dimensions as a Mad fold-in, I had to go for it.

Yes, the revolution is truly upon us comrades... er... freedom lovers.

No revolution.

Just a reminder.

Your laws don't bind us all. We don't all pay your taxes any more than people obey your drug laws. We don't abide by your regulations any more than we abide by your traffic laws. We're using your loopholes and your own laws against the very government you embrace.

Simply put, we don't need you. We're not listening anymore.

And we're armed.

"My laws"?


"You look like a crazy person."

We don't obey your laws...

We don't pay your taxes...


Blah...blah...blah...


Any idea how much of an asshat you sound like ?



/braces for inrush of negs.

Know how much I care?

Maybe he likes paying taxes.

It has nothing to do with liking it, they are a necessary evil.

I thought liberals lived in a fantasy land, but compared to you guys (if you are representatives of real libertarians), they are downright sane.

So, essentially, what you are saying then, is that you libertarians are defrauding the rest of the country? Nice job standing up to your principles. How are we to trust that this fraud will end as soon as you get the legal system you demand?

Anybody else not understand this one? I mean, Archangel made quite a good point about libertarian asshattery, and Liet negs him?

When you hand your empty wallet to a mugger, and don't tell him about the roll of hundreds in your sock, that's not fraud.

Hey they made the rules, now watch as I deduct my next trip to Napa.

A rather inapt and inept analogy.

When you join a social club, you pay dues or you don't get to chat by the fire in the leather chairs.

So basically they are common criminals, got it.

No matter how much they try to sugar coat it.

So basically you think the state should be privy to my personal finances?

Sugar coat that.

I'm sure they see their law breaking as civil disobedience, even though it is really just selfish arrogance. Of course, real civil disobedience is done openly (ie, tell the government, rather than bragging anonymously), with every expectation that a punishment will be pronounced.