Israel is Coming Apart at the Seams, It Seems

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Tuckerfan, Mar 26, 2023.

  1. Crosis36

    Crosis36 Author

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    In the end, it was extremely foolish of Hamas to commit the October 7th attack. There was never going to be a groundswell of support for a terrorist regime that targeted civilians at a music festival. Rather, it opened the door for the hard right to do what they've wanted to for years.
    In the immediate aftermath, few were going to fault the Israelis for their response, especially in light of the 100+ hostages Hamas took. By the time the full extent of what Israel planned to do was clear, it was too late.
    And now Gaza is mostly rubble, and the American side that at least nominally was opposed to that got voted out to "send a message". Well, message received.
    I pity the Palestinians, but I've rarely seen people who repeatedly take so many actions against their own self-interest.
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  2. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    That was right at the start. It's all on record.

    Utterly delusional.

    You're trying to rewrite history to make yourself feel better.
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  3. Crosis36

    Crosis36 Author

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    No.
    That's why I said "nominally".
    I don't feel like I have anything i need to make myself feel better over. My own opinions haven't changed.
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  4. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    There are still around 2 million people there, nearly entirely displaced, and in horrific conditions, and around 20% of the infrastructure survives, although I suspect the viable infrastructure will be half that.

    Catastrophic? Yes. Irretrievable? No.

    Gaza can not only be rebuilt, but it should be an opportunity to make the place more independent of Israel, and the capacity for creating large scale temporary habitats exists, it's a matter of will and money.

    To be cold blooded, the rebuilding would provide an opportunity for European states to bolster their economies, and unlike the Arab states, could be reasonably done without resort to slave labour. As it is, I expect the Chinese to take the opportunity, their house builders need a shot in the arm, although it'll mean future Gazan buildings will be able to collapse without any Israeli assistance, and a few extra corpses under the foundations.

    Claiming Gaza is "gone" just gives Netanyahu fuel for claiming it may as well be Israeli territory, it can be rebuilt.

    Like it or not, there has been an element of restraint - it wasn't that long ago that the US and UK would cheerfully stop providing Israel with weaponry, Reagan actively ignoring begging letters, Thatcher actively berating them - and Netanyahu doesn't want a return to that.

    Problem is most of our leaders have no idea how to tackle him - Clinton went full Brian Blessed after one meeting - whilst he knows exactly how to deal with our leaders, and which red lines to cross. Similar to Putin, he knows the West has weak leadership, and knows where he can, and cannot, push. This is why the Generals Plan is being enacted in slow motion, and with a lot of deniability at state level. He can get away with it that way, do it explicitly or in a way that can't be excused, then I suspect we'd see a different response from the US.

    Counterfactuals are always awkward, but I suspect if there was no leash, you'd have died from apoplexy months ago.

    My support for Israel's operations isn't blanket, and is at an end when it comes to Hamas and Hezbollah. What started as a valid response to an attack, has now morphed into a holding pattern for keeping Netanyahu in power. Both Hamas and Hezbollah are done for the time being, removing them permanently is now something to be achieved through removing the current Iranian regime and providing a stable environment for the Palestinians.
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  5. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    And to add, realistically the war's only going to end when Netanyahu exits the stage.

    Trump might actually be of use on that, his ego wants him painted as the great maker of peace, so what deal is there is to be had to see Bibi permanently fuck off?
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  6. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    They haven't been in nominal or any other form of opposition to it. They have financed it and supported it every inch of the way, and strained every sinew to do it.
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  7. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Restaurant Meat Clown. Administrator Overlord

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  8. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    When Palestinians keep using every bit of freedom they have to engage in pointless yet bloody violence against their closest neighbor, it shouldn't come as a big surprise when their demands for more freedom fall on deaf ears. :clyde:
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  9. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Stating that Gaza is gone is merely a recognition of reality, and refutation of your line that the Israeli attacks on it were in some way moderated. Of course it could and should be rebuilt, but then so could Atlantis. Biden has been just fine with the direction they're going in, which is and always has been to retain long-term control with the much reduced population of Palestinians forced into camps and encouraged to leave.

    As with the annexation of the West Bank which now seems likely, this may well prove to be a very serious strategic error for the Israelis, and presents other opportunities for the Palestinians in the longer term, once the obvious pantomime of the two-state solution is put to bed.

    I suspect that if there was a leash, you'd be able to point to examples of it being tugged.

    Desiring an outcome where a state you admit is genocidal and expansionist would have free reign in the region is really something. To say nothing of the destruction that would be wrought by an attempt to remove the Iranian regime.

    And clearly you're not paying attention to what's going on in northern Israel or southern Lebanon if you think Hezbollah are done. They are hitting farther and farther into Israel (Tel Aviv last night) and are able to prevent any territory from being held across the blue line while inflicting heavy losses. The IDF is unable to achieve anything other than collectively punishing the Shia population of Lebanon with airstrikes in response. That may well in fact work, but it won't solve anything in the longer term.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2024
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  10. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    The US vetoed another UN ceasefire resolution. Working tirelessly for a ceasefire indeed.
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  11. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    I don't think Netanyahu or Hamas give a shit what the UN resolves or doesn't resolve about what they want Netanyahu or Hamas to do. :shrug:
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  12. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Then there was no reason to veto it. Particularly after pontificating about others doing the same on a similar resolution for Sudan.
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  13. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Al Jazeera said the reason the US gave for vetoing it was that it called for an "unconditional" ceasefire, which is a reason I completely agree with.
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  14. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Why doesn't Biden use his immense power to punish Netanyahu? :weep:

    The United States Senate has rejected a bill that aimed to block a US weapons sale to Israel amid the country’s war on Gaza, an outcome that rights advocates say does not take away from a growing push to condition aid to Washington’s top ally.

    A resolution to halt the sale of tank rounds failed to advance in a 79 to 18 vote on Wednesday, with prominent progressives and mainstream Democratic senators backing the effort.

    Two more resolutions to halt the sale of other weapons also failed after winning fewer than 20 votes.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...t-to-withhold-weapons-to-israel-amid-gaza-war

    That's a level of support that can easily override a presidential veto or overrule almost anything Biden could try to unilaterally do to punish Netanyahu. :shrug:
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  15. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Weapons transfers to Israel are currently illegal under US law. If the Biden Administration chooses to follow the law, they do not need approval and Congress cannot override, short of changing the law.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2024
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  16. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2024
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  17. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Fir Defamsation

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    What a fucking joke.

    The ICC also has an outstanding warrant for Vladimir Putin and has never issued a warrant for the people responsible for the October 7th attacks. Also, their track record on apprehensions and convictions is pretty awful.

    How much money do the jackasses at the ICC waste, anyway?
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  18. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    This is false. Mohammed Deif is included in this warrant specifically for that, as they are unable to confirm reports of his death. And two others would be included were they still alive.
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  19. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    If congress wants something funded they'll find a way to fund it, regardless of how many loopholes it takes. Meanwhile Biden gets labelled pro-terrorist and anti-Israel and Kamala loses the election even harder.

    You're so conveniently ignorant. :shrug:
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  20. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Restaurant Meat Clown. Administrator Overlord

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  21. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    I haven't had chance to read the charges yet, can one of the people saying they are absurd let us know which ones are clearly false?
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  22. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    Is this shity still going on? DSop youi know how many bottles of wine I have had to have to xclick on this shit? Yaweh damn, stop killing people. I do not want jeqws or palestinians dying. Yopu both fucking matter to me. Stop killing each other. Stop raping and pillaging each other.

    Yes I am fucked up and that is why I am here. I cannot be complicit when this wasted because it hurts. Do you know what it feels like to see jews bleeding from the groin because palestinians caused them damage? It is fucking awfulk. Do you know what it feels like to see dead palestinian innocents all over because the IDF can;'t contro l themselves and strike at the weakest for the maximum impact? Fuck that shit too. If I shot melanbia in the head for all the shit Trump has done people would freak out and rightfully so. That is what both sides are doing. They are hitting the complicit innocents.

    Fuck you all. @RickDeckard I get it. You are getting the shit kicked out of you because the shit is the fucking shit. But you really have become the otgher side and you are not recognizing your own love for the reverse bloodshed. I do not want to see you go into mthat hole. It is a shitty place man. I get that the world is pushing you down into it and maybe you cannot escape the push. On the other side I get what Dr. Kreig and 14th doctor are all mad about. I do not want jews jkilled because they are jews either. I love the fucking jews and their lives matter to me. I want the police to be able to investigate and stop all tghe anti0-jewish terrorists. I love my jewish communityu members as they have made my life so much more robust and great over all. I have been given so much by rich and powerful jewish members of the community.

    Yes, iu am fucked up right now and my ego is on a floating raft on the river styx enjoying itself in opeace, and ovbviously spellcxheck and grammar have gone out the indow with the socond bottle of whine, but if alcohol brigs out your inner fewelings without the repression of a intellectual censor then I want the desath to stiop and for the refs to come in and make you all safe in your being while stopping thje violence.

    I gety it, the world is not that way. You have to fight the battle that is before you and win. Just have a fucking hearrt when you are secxure.
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  23. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Fir Defamsation

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    The charges are irrelevant when the institution issuing them is a farce and has little authority to begin with, no matter what the high-minded "international law" folks want to believe. However, if you're interested, the "charges" can be found here:

    https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situat...al-chamber-i-rejects-state-israels-challenges
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  24. Rincewiend

    Rincewiend 21st Century Digital Boy

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    [​IMG]
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  25. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Who could have possibly seen this coming?

    Trump appoints anti-Palestinian, darling of the European far-right Sebastian Gorka to 'counterterrorism' role
    Trump has appointed Sebastian Gorka, who said that there was 'no such thing as Palestine' and made anti-Islam statements, as head of counterterrorism.

    https://www.newarab.com/news/trump-picks-anti-palestine-seb-gorka-counter-terrorism-chief

    He also said there is "no such thing as Palestine" and said Israel should respond to Hamas’s October 7 surprise attack, which began the Gaza war, by "killing every single one of them".

    He has also said that Islam is "not a religion of peace" and claimed that terrorism is rooted in the teachings of the Quran, dismissing the idea that political and social problems in the Muslim world were a cause.



    Oh, right, everyone. Everyone could see this coming.
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  26. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Fir Defamsation

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    Apparently not the Muslim voters in Michigan!
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  27. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    The ceasefire in Lebanon seems to me like it will be incredibly shaky. It's very favourable to Israel but it does not meet all of their goals and word is that they were pushed into it by the Biden Administration.
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  28. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Restaurant Meat Clown. Administrator Overlord

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  29. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Where to even start with this nonsense?

    It leaves out the Second Arab–Israeli War of 1956 which was started by Israel (alongside France and Britain).
    It is wrong about the the Six Day War of 1967 - Israel attacked Egypt.
    It ignores (or merges into other events) the 1982 Lebanon War where Israel attacked Lebanon, then blames the Lebanese for "starting" the subsequent campaign to expel their invaders, and claims that Israel was victorious even though they were in fact expelled.
    It assigns responsibility for the First Intifada, which was initially overwhelmingly peaceful (at least on behalf of the Palestinians) to Hamas - which did not exist at its outset.
    It claims that Israel won the 2006 Lebanon War, when they got their asses kicked.

    And responsibility both for "starting" and for "winning" several of the other conflicts is also both disputed and complex.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2024
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  30. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Restaurant Meat Clown. Administrator Overlord

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    Ok, Irish Nazi. :lol:
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