now it seems

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by the_hawk_flies_at_dawn, Aug 16, 2009.

Page 1 of 3
  1. the_hawk_flies_at_dawn

    the_hawk_flies_at_dawn MERCY DADDY!!!

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,472
    Likes Received:
    99
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    factory
    Location:
    Ripley, Ms
    Ratings:
    +100
    the_hawk_flies_at_dawn, Aug 16, 2009
    #1
  2. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    59,487
    Likes Received:
    33,752
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +48,917
    ^Can you be more specific?
     
    garamet, Aug 16, 2009
    #2
  3. frontline

    frontline Hedonistic Glutton Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2004
    Messages:
    13,032
    Likes Received:
    8,271
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Slut
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Ratings:
    +8,290
    For those of you who dont want to check the link:

    Now all of a sudden the administration is saying that government provided health care insurance is not a priority *cough bullshit cough*. Instead non-profit co-ops would be used to offer health insurance to the 50 million that dont have insurance (then again what about those folks who can currently afford it but dont want it).

    Maybe the fact that a majority of Americans dont want government health care has finally dawned on the obamamessiah.
     
    frontline, Aug 16, 2009
    #3
  4. The Original Faceman

    The Original Faceman Lasagna Artist

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    40,856
    Likes Received:
    16,996
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +28,819
    He's afraid of the Death Panel option.
     
    The Original Faceman, Aug 16, 2009
    #4
  5. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    If so, okay, but what about fixing the issue?


    J.
     
    Amaris, Aug 16, 2009
    #5
  6. the_hawk_flies_at_dawn

    the_hawk_flies_at_dawn MERCY DADDY!!!

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,472
    Likes Received:
    99
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    factory
    Location:
    Ripley, Ms
    Ratings:
    +100
    not only that but there were tales of forced abortion and yes the death panel shit kinda unnerved me
     
    the_hawk_flies_at_dawn, Aug 16, 2009
    #6
  7. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    59,487
    Likes Received:
    33,752
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +48,917
    Well, as you say, you got all that from Fox. Nothing but hysteria.

    I mean, are there forced abortions or death panels in the UK, Canada, Germany, et al.?
     
    garamet, Aug 16, 2009
    #7
  8. The Original Faceman

    The Original Faceman Lasagna Artist

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    40,856
    Likes Received:
    16,996
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +28,819
    It's a good thing none of that was actually true. Otherwise you'd have been justified in your pantie pissing.
     
    The Original Faceman, Aug 16, 2009
    #8
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Muad Dib

    Muad Dib Probably a Dual Deceased Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2004
    Messages:
    53,665
    Likes Received:
    23,734
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +23,779
    If it's Welfare recipients, I like it. :techman:
     
    Muad Dib, Aug 16, 2009
    #9
  10. the_hawk_flies_at_dawn

    the_hawk_flies_at_dawn MERCY DADDY!!!

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,472
    Likes Received:
    99
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    factory
    Location:
    Ripley, Ms
    Ratings:
    +100
    it is Faux News so yeah, you gotta take it for what its worth
     
    the_hawk_flies_at_dawn, Aug 16, 2009
    #10
  11. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    Although that may be taken as an unquestioned article of faith by some, it's not true.
     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #11
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    ^ There's no way to truly know, though. The arguments are that "the people don't want government health care" collide with "the people do want some kind of government health care". Both claim the majority. We don't really know, and that can be laid at the feet of the government on all sides for not being clear and muddying the waters.


    J.
     
    Amaris, Aug 16, 2009
    #12
  13. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    Where is there any evidence that a majority of people don't want government to ensure healthcare for all?
     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #13
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Tuttle

    Tuttle Listen kid, we're all in it together.

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    9,017
    Likes Received:
    3,633
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    not NY
    Ratings:
    +4,902
    Three out of four Americans like their current health care arrangements.

    That's 75%. Any solution that threatens that particular status quo is unpopular. Any government solution automatically will put into jeopardy the status quo.
     
    Tuttle, Aug 16, 2009
    #14
  15. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    That does not follow. People can like their current arrangements and still feel that the state should ensure healthcare for those without.

    If the claim that frontline made is accurate, then there should be plenty of polling data to show it. But I've posted the data before, it's shows the opposite and the best that people come up with is "they phrased the question wrong" combined with this sort of speculative logical leap.
     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #15
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    That's the problem. As I just noticed, both sides are claiming majority. You can find evidence for both.

    Anyhoo, I found this website interesting:
    http://www.balancedpolitics.org/universal_health_care.htm

    Discusses the pros and cons of UHC. I have to say they're pretty convincing in the cons department. I believe we need healthcare reform, but we need to do it right. People's lives hang in the balance.

    As for polling, but I'm sorry, I have no faith in polls anymore. They can be guided to prove anything. Polls in regard to politics are the worst, as people are already inherently biased to get a certain result anyway.

    J.
     
    Amaris, Aug 16, 2009
    #16
  17. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    Okay. Where?
     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #17
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...reform_better_than_passing_congressional_plan

    J.
     
    Amaris, Aug 16, 2009
    #18
  19. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    No, that doesn't say anything at all about people not wanting UHC.

     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #19
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    I had a feeling you'd stop there. Keep reading.

    You can take that as you wish, because you will, but these people oppose this plan.

    J.
     
    Amaris, Aug 16, 2009
    #20
  21. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    Yeah. So what? That's not an indication that the public doesn't support UHC.
     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #21
    • Agree Agree x 2
  22. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    It's an indication the public is not supporting this form of UHC. Whether they would support another form is one thing, but that is speculation. You asked for proof of majority opposition, and it was given.


    J.
     
    Amaris, Aug 16, 2009
    #22
  23. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    You are moving the goalposts. I have no argument with the fact that the public don't support this form of UHC.
    The polling data in regards to whether they support some other form of UHC is quite consistent and not at all speculation.
     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #23
    • Agree Agree x 2
  24. K.

    K. Sober

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    27,298
    Likes Received:
    21,854
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +31,281
    Ed. f. acc.
     
    K., Aug 16, 2009
    #24
  25. Tuttle

    Tuttle Listen kid, we're all in it together.

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    9,017
    Likes Received:
    3,633
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    not NY
    Ratings:
    +4,902
    Practically everyone on the planet "supports" peace and love for fellow man (aside from some uppity muslims). See how good that's worked out? Germany invades Czechoslovakia, Russia invades Afghanistan, Iraq invades Kuwait, US invades Iraq.

    The details are the rub - things like practicality of achieving it, and the cost. You can't separate the benefit from the cost if you want a real life answer.

    The majority doesn't agree with UHC if they have to pay for it.


    Funny, in the abstract you're right about socialism too - in theory it's peachy. In practice, it's abominable. That's why your ideology is a (sad) joke.
     
    Tuttle, Aug 16, 2009
    #25
  26. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    You said no such thing.
    Here, a little supplemental reading:
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...fear_government_more_than_insurance_companies


    The information is there. If you like you can make it even more exclusive so that this will be "wrong" too.

    Meh. Edit until your heart is content. He asked for proof of a majority, I gave it. Now he's redefining the parameters to be less inclusive.

    J.
     
    Amaris, Aug 16, 2009
    #26
  27. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    My claim was that it was not true that American opposed "government health care". I am correct, and your evidence concerning Obama's specific proposals is irrelevant to this.

    I asked "Where is there any evidence that a majority of people don't want government to ensure healthcare for all?" This stands, and as of yet, you have not answered it.
     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #27
    • Agree Agree x 2
  28. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    So what you're saying is that the 53% who do not approve of this healthcare plan (understood as a government run healthcare plan), and the 51% who do not trust the government to run a healthcare plan, still works out in your favor? Looks like these people don't want the government to ensure healthcare for all. Looks like they've got other plans. Assuming these people would put through a government plan when this data shows that unlikely, is just speculation.

    J.
     
    Amaris, Aug 16, 2009
    #28
  29. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,919
    Likes Received:
    26,474
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,531
    My emphasis. No such figure was obtained.

    And as I stated, it is not speculation. The evidence is quite overwhelming.

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/healthcare031020_poll.html

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/opinion/polls/main2528357.shtml

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/15715

    And there are dozens of other polls if you wish to google them.
     
    RickDeckard, Aug 16, 2009
    #29
    • Agree Agree x 2
  30. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    19,127
    Likes Received:
    6,664
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manchester, UK
    Ratings:
    +8,259
    This kind of highlights the problem with the UHC concept in the US, rather than looking at the greatest benefit vs lowest cost, the end result is going to be a cobbled together mix designed to placate as many people as possible.

    The US health system certainly needs an overhaul, with the French and German models something to study, but Obamacare is going to end up as an expensive boondoggle when all the juggling to get it passed has been complete.

    Obama's plan has kicked off an interesting debate over here though, with Labour displaying a lovely mix of kneejerk nationalism, outright lies and the NHS being viewed through lenses of the rose-tinted variety.
     
    Ebeneezer Goode, Aug 16, 2009
    #30
Page 1 of 3