Spanish Civil War Part Deux?

Nothing on the Catalan independence referendum? I'd have thought the US Civil War fanatics would've been all over this - the, errr, North East will rise again!

Cliff notes:

Spain is basically a number of historically different kingdoms welded together, all with different languages and customs, and the hope that enough time will ensure they remain together.

Some of the regions, most notably the Basque and Catalonian ones, have had movements wanting to separate, and recently Catalonia held a referendum.

The Spanish state decided, nuh-uh, no referendum for you and sent in the heavies.

The Catalonians, regardless of if they were going to vote remain or leave, predictably reacted badly to this.

The EU, taking a leaf out of Nelson's book, declared they saw nothing.

France has remained remarkably quiet, which given a chunk of historic Catalonia resides in their territory.

The Basque are looking on with curiosity. Historic Basque also covers a chunk of France, as shown when both Spanish and French police used to deal with ETA members.

Catalonia has declared independence. Sort of. It's a bit of a Shrodingers Declaration of Independence.

Madrid has asked for clarification, just so they know whether to try and remove the autonomy Catalonia has and send in the troops.

It's a bit of an oddity. Whilst I support the right for the Catalans to depart Spain, the referendum wasn't a fair reflection - turnout ended up being under 50%, partially down to Madrid. Had they just let the bloody referendum run, chances are it would've been a reflection of the Scottish independence vote, and even if it hadn't, Madrid could've just declared the result as advisory.

Going to be interesting to see what starts shaking out of this, and that's the Chinese definition.

I'm skeptical. I've seen far too many Soviet, Russian and the rags of the so called "Luhansk and Donetsk people's Republic" flags floating around their marches. Putin is known to support separatist movements around the world.
However, Spain is a bunch of kingdoms slung together, and I don't blame the Basque and Catalonians for wanting their own destiny. The Kurdish people just made the same choice.

This is such a clusterfuck. It could be a very simple issue and every side is working so very hard to make their own cause untenable.

If the Catalonian people want to separate, they should be able to do so.

Yes.

Unfortunately, we don't know if a majority actually wants that, because the loyalists advertised refraining from voting rather than voting for remain as the sign of their loyalism.

From what little I know of Spain and Spanish politics, hasn't Catalan always been sort of independent of Spain?

I was surprised that first headlines about Spain separatists read "Catalonia" and not the Basque regions.

I wasn't much surprised by the Francoesque handling of the moves in favor of severing. Stupidly, the central government's handling might have transformed what would have been the losing side (in a vote) into a majority.

Interesting that both separatist regions still show popular support for remaining under EU, they just want out of Spain.

Sort of, yes. Which many Catalans seem to feel is enough, and better than full independence.

To what extent would Catolonian independence be beneficial to the region? Mere autonomy? Wouldn't the economic downsides be worse? Spain is already hurting economically, I don't imagine that a whole region separating would flourish. I admittedly don't know as much about the Catolonian independence movement as I do with Scottish and Kurdish independence.

A.k.a. standard US politics

Catalonia has no basis for seeking independence from Spain. About as much as California from the U.S.

Never IIRC.

The Vegas Massacre really bailed Madrid out. Pictures of the Civil Guard pulling women out of voting booths by their hair would have been front page.

I'm surprised that it's Catalonia and not the Basque Country that is forcing this, but this issue has been simmering for a century now. During the transition to democracy Madrid was able to walk the tight rope with their 'unified state with autonomous regions' but it couldn't last.

Be interesting to see what happens. My bet would be that Spain moves to a Federated State but who knows.

Gora Euskadi!

As usual you remember incorrectly.

post a link

Here ya go teach:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Barcelona

I'm not. The Basques might eventually go down this road, but the terrorism committed in the name of Basque independence has all but completely discredited this cause. The two younger generations oppose it now, because to them, independence is no more than a threat on their otherwise safe lives. In Catalonia, independence is more rather than less popular with the young, there are more active native speakers than in the previous generation, and there is a recognition of Catalonia and its culture in European pop culture that does not exist for the Basques.

ELEVEN HUNDRED YEARS AGO!!!

Oh my.

UN rule of recognitions of sovereignty do not apply in any way to Catalonia.

According to the UN guidelines, a region has a right to sovereignty under the following three conditions:

1) It was subject to military conquest
2) It was colonized
3) It has suffered repression.

None of those apply in the case of Catalonia.

No. Today. There is an almost independent regional government, a separate police force, a different juridical tradition, and for what it is worth, a separate language.

Irrelevant

You've almost described Louisiana

Keep reading teach.

Putin is pulling the loose threads to unravel the world. I hope people wake up in time.

Nope. That is not an exhaustive list, and the fundamental principle of self-determination is recognised by the UN as well as the Charter of Human Rights.

Aka "I was wrong".

Yes it is. If not please post an exhaustive list courtesy of the United Nations.

I'm not under any obligation to read anything by a low life who acts deliberately disrespectful to me. Moderate your tone or get lost.

No, I will not post an exhaustive list to prove my claim that there exists no exhaustive list.

In other words, you're wrong.