"THOR: LOVE AND THUNDER" review & discussion thread

Discussion in 'Media Central' started by Ben Ruthlessburger, Jul 8, 2022.

  1. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    If you've listened to the podcast, then you know the kind of shit he says. Regardless of whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, or .. what the fuck ever, you know the shit he says. and much of it is misogynistic and racist.
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  2. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Look at me. I'm the Dayman now.

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    I was thinking maybe the intact "alive" Mjolnir that Thor brought back from the past in Endgame gave the broken pieces of Mjolnir in the present just enough of a boost for it to come back eventually, or re-enchanted it, or shared it's Katra or whatever. :clyde:
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  3. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Look at me. I'm the Dayman now.

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    I gotta say, I always enjoyed Thor, but I never really *got* him as a character until this movie. Now he might just be my favorite Avenger. :async:
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  4. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    It reforged under very specific circumstances (which Thor wouldn't have created if he had the choice) and under conditions that Thor didn't even know existed (so even if he was willing, he wouldn't have done it).

    "I haven't seen the movie yet" - neither have I, but you could fucking Google it before flapping your jaw.

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  5. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    So in reality, the movies demonstrate what the rules are by showing what happens on-screen or stating what the rules are. The rest is assumptions.

    Mjolnir can't reform after being crushed? Says who or what? Thor: L & T shows it can. No previous movie says that it can't. For all we know, Thor could have willed Mjolnir to do shrapnel attacks like Jane does in this movie but never thought of it.

    It's almost certainly the case with any alleged rulebreak that CD or you or anyone else might claim to name in any of the movies.
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  6. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Say more.
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  7. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Thor: Love and Thunder. They turned Thor into 60s Camp Batman, and the script was written by Shemp, the 4th Stooge. Moe, Larry, and Curly all looked at the treatment and said, 'Nope, far too stupid, I'm out.'

    A couple of really good ideas that were let down by constant slapstick, and the humor didn't come from the situation or the characters, just from turning all the characters into caricatures and children. The humor came from insulting the premise.

    And an ending that was truly, deeply moronic on a level that no Marvel movie has even come close to achieving.
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  8. Chaos Descending

    Chaos Descending 14th Level Human Cleric

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    Yep, this one was bad.
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  9. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Until they have him do the Thortusi, I think I'm good.

    But seriously, I would be interested in hearing more about what you think were moronic or out-of-character decisions in the movie.
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  10. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    They pretty much did have him do the Thortusi.

    It was outright slapstick.

    Most of the humor in the previous movies came from Thor being out his element in another culture or came from the situations, and that was generally well done. Though to be noted the best line in the movie Ragnarok 'He's a friend from work!' came from a kid on set and not the writing group.

    In this situation Thor is an idiot no matter where he goes. He constantly tries to give speeches, even to his own people, that are completely inept, awkward and ridiculous. His interactions with Jane Foster are those of a lovestruck teenager. His Hammer and Axe are now somehow sentient, and he treats them like jealous lovers. You could have gotten away with that if you played it straight and had Thor annoyed, but instead he plays it virtually maudlin. He's back to destroying everything he tries to help, from the first scene on, he's ridiculously emotionally needy (and again, this played for laughs straight out instead of like in Endgame which could be funny but with an undercurrent of sadness). He fails at everything he tries - indeed, the bad guy wins.

    In the middle of this you've got Jane Foster dying of cancer, which struck a particularly nauseous note. Her reaction, compared to Jane Foster the noted astrophysicist, is to want to smash things with her new hammer and go into complete denial. Throwing that into a slapstick did not sit well with me - being a cancer survivor myself.

    As to Mjolnir independently reforming, yeah, FF is right about that one. It's completely against the previous movie. Internal consistency is important in high fantasy, or it becomes farce.

    But then, they used to repeatedly say that Asgardian science was not magic. This time it's magic everywhere, they constantly call it magic. Like the writers forgot the previous work.

    The concept that the Hammer was bound to protect Jane Foster could have been a good one, but they fucked that up too. Foster goes there after researching the enchantment of the hammer that said 'health' prominently several times. But no, that's no what it does. It gives you temporary health - by killing you. Use of the Hammer is what kills Jane.

    And Omnipotent City - again, slapstick, and Zeus was clearly written in that manner. And my god, what a stupid accent. The Amadeus Cho and Hercules plot line was great, would love to have seen that in the MCU someday. Now they've destroyed Hercules backstory for no reason whatsoever.

    Then we get to the absolutely moronic ending. After being completely ineffectual the entire time, trying to gain an army of Gods to help him fight Gor, suddenly Thor is able to grant his power to a bunch of kids who go on to slaughter the bad guys minions.

    But Gorr gets to Eternity anyway.

    Note, that this was the big element of the plot. Gorr the God Butcher wants to go to Eternity, the one real God, and wish to wipe out all the little Gods. You know, because Gorr doesn't believe in Gods. Despite his entire plan being dedicated to finding a God and getting his wish.

    And it takes Thor to tell him he should wish for his daughter instead. But then it gets even stupider.

    Because Gorr is dying and won't be able to be with his daughter. Despite his ability to be granted a wish so that the two could live in health eternally forever.

    But wait, it gets even stupider. Thor is there and Jane is dying next to him. Thor doesn't want Jane to die. Why doesn't Thor walk over and ask Eternity to cure Jane's cancer?

    It was a bad plot, force-fed to get to stupid ends, that had to be shoehorned in at the cost of any intelligence by the characters whatsoever.

    I'm sure I could nitpick another hundred things, but the core stupidity from the opening scene to the end is more than enough.
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  11. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Honest trailer for the original Hulk vs Thor movie.



    Dude who played Thor is more remembered as Little John in "Robin Hood: Men In Tights".
    Tweenage me thought Hulk vs Thor would be an immortal and beloved classic, and "Tights" would be a forgotten flash in the pan.
    Total opposite.
    :lol:
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  12. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Beep/Bop/Boop

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    :lol:
    I was so pumped when that came out.
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  13. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Look at me. I'm the Dayman now.

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    Point of order: Cancer killed Jane, the Hammer inadvertently helped the cancer by "protecting" her from the effects of the chemotherapy. :async:


    Fun fact: In the concept art, Russell Crowe was originally playing Satan.

    [​IMG]
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  14. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    They pretty explicitly state that Mjolnir is using her own life force to keep her strong. If they said anything about the chemo I must have missed it. Regardless, Thor isn't a doctor, he hardly would be the one to say 'you miss one more chemo treatment you'll die.' But then, having had cancer and been through years of chemo I know that's not how it would work - even a doctor wouldn't put it in those terms.
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  15. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Look at me. I'm the Dayman now.

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    I don't remember if they went into the mechanics of it in the movie, but I'm of the understanding that's how it worked in the comics with the Hammer counteracting the chemo. :clyde:
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  16. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    You did.
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  17. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Thank you for your reply. And congrats on surviving cancer. Even though I don't tend to agree with much of what you are saying, I at least understand where you are coming from.

    I don't think that the speeches Thor gives are any more inept, awkward or ridiculous that the speeches he has given in previous movies.

    I think Thor's interactions with and about Jane have been like a lovestruck teenager. I think part of the point of MCU Thor is from the first he is pretty immature for a being who is 1500+ years old. As far as we know, he has never been in love love until Jane. One would imagine being Prince of Asgard, he's had all sorts of romances and dalliances, but as far as we've been shown or told, he could have been a virgin pre-Jane.

    I think the humor attempts in TL&T do come from the situation he's in: here's a guy who has lost most of what he had loved in his long and privileged life in just the span of (for him) almost no time at all: his mother, his father, his brother, his home planet, his hammer, his love. Suddenly, two of those things are back within reach. Now what?

    I would contend that there was always some level of sentience to Mjolnir. How else could it determine who was worthy and who was not?

    Other people have pointed out that the movie says that Mjolnir is preventing Jane's chemo from working and that is why she will die. Thor not being a doctor, or even particularly bright when it comes to science/medicine, it makes sense that he might reduce the situation to "miss one more chemo treatment, and you'll die" even though the situation is probably more complicated than that.

    The argument that Mjolnir can reassemble itself makes its earlier destruction less poignant is certainly a valid one. (Although I disagree. It's not like the fact that Spock comes back in ST:III makes his sacrifice in ST:II meaningless). But the argument that Mjolnir COULDN'T reassemble itself based on what had been previously established, which is what I understood him to be arguing, is nonsense. There is nothing in the previous movies that contradicts the notion that given time Mjolnir couldn't do what we just saw it do in this movie.

    I don't know what Hercules/Amadeus Cho plotline you're referring to, but I don't see why they can't do whatever plotline they want to with Hercules.

    Endgame established that Thor's power could be shared. That he can choose to share it (as opposed to Cap just having it because Mjolnir thinks him worthy) doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

    Yes, like probably any movie that depends on wishes, there is a flaw that the characters don't ask for more or better wishes. And there is no particular reason Eternity should just randomly grant anybody wishes, let alone just the first rando who makes it to him.

    I think some of why Gorr wishes for what he does stems for what motivated him in the first place. As we saw, he was a very devout person until and even after he lost his daughter. It was only coming face to face with his god and the realization that god didn't give a shit about him or his daughter or pretty much anything that he went anti-god. A better version of this movie would have more explicitly shown what I think this movie hinted at: that after butchering all these gods, Gorr was surprised to finally encountered one in Thor who gave a shit about something other than filling his belly, getting laid and having a good time. That once he was somewhat freed from the corrupting influence of the Necrosword and was doomed, he had regrets about how his quest was misguided and how the real aim of it was to get his true heart's desire -- his daughter to have a chance to live a healthy life. That he had reasons for not wishing to also go on with her because his soul was too damaged or the wish was too complex or whatever.

    I think a better version of the movie would have established why Thor didn't try to ask Eternity to save Jane, whether that was because Eternity only has one wish that he's willing to give, or because Jane didn't want him to, because of whatever semi-plausible reason they came up with. Or heck, maybe go the crazy route of having Eternity just on its own restore Jane.

    I'm not saying TL&T was anywhere close to the top tier of Marvel movies, but for me it's just somewhere in the middle. I'd have made a bunch of changes, including spending a lot more time with the serious aspect of dealing with pain, loss and trauma. It was deeply hurt because it didn't feel like Jane really ever cared about Thor in this or any of the movies beyond "hey, he's hot" and Natalie P didn't really feel like flexing her acting muscles.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2022
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  18. Zor Prime

    Zor Prime .

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    I enjoyed the movie.

    It’s definitely not the best Marvel movie ever but it’s not the worst either.

    I still think Eternals is the worst. And even that had some good moments, just poorly told.

    I liked the Jane Foster storyline and Christian Bale was an interesting villain.

    I don’t think we need more Thor movies after this and I would have been okay if they had ended his story with Endgame.
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  19. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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  20. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    Watched it. Liked it.
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