I would say a good move on Obama's part then. Do we really want ISIS to gain traction? Not a nice image. Right now we have the Ukraine thing - pretty much something Europe could handle even if they won't. We need to stay out of that. The Gaza strip? Israel has it's hands full but militarily they have it covered, so we need to stay out of that. Hamas isn't going to overtake Israel within our lifetimes. We need to do our version of a ME Berlin Airlift and if we do start bombing the living dog-shit out of ISIS as a side-effect so be it! We won't look like the "bad guy" on this to too many people that have any common sense. But you can't please everyone. Yes, civilians will die. But if ISIS spreads even more will die and those that don't will be in a living hell. Not an Obama fan by any means, but when it comes to military matters he seems to have his shit together.
I have to agree. But nothing will happen from this side. 1000 Christians murdered in one day in Iraq by IS? No problem... No demonstrations in the streets, nothing. No reactions by politicians. Israel bombing Hamas? All hell breaks loose and the peace movement is on the streets, blaming Israel for genocide. The Saudis, Quatar? Our beloved "friends and allies" in the region? They don't give a flying fuck what happens in their neighborhood. These sunni regimes may even be the main supporters of IS. Perhaps IS uses weapons we (the US and Europe) sold to the Saudis, Quatar and Turkey. That's pretty fucked up, if you ask me... Another disturbing thought, at least for a lefty like me: If Romney (or McCain) was POTUS, perhaps these Islamistic barbarians would have been wiped out weeks ago. Time to darken the skies with a fleet of B52 and annihilate these bastards. Time to play world police again and take the blame afterwards... I know it is fucked up... Sorry USA... Perhaps arming the Kurds with heavy weaponry could help. They are experienced warriors. But I doubt that there is enough time for that. And another "friend and ally" of the US and the EU - Turkey - may not like the idea. Perhaps we should to nothing and let the whole region go down the shitter. Problem is: One day, the islamistic subhumans will show up at OUR borders and "convert" us to their religion of peace by a nice and clean beheading. The world has become complicated. Sometimes I miss the Cold War.
IS uses the same tactics which made the Mongols so successful 800 years ago: They just kill everybody in sight who doesn't submit in a second, spreading terror and causing hundreds of thousands to run for their lives. They may be few, but they know no limits in their cruelty. This is why they are so "successful".
I really like how there really is no way for the US to win. How much shit (justified or otherwise) has the US caught for essentially acting as the "world police?" Now we're catching shit for not being the world police.
Actually, the irony is, I've been reading up on ISIS quite a bit lately and it's surprising just how many conservative Islamists themselves see the IS as a step too far, including senior jihandist clerics linked to Al-Qaeda, who have criticism the indiscriminate killing and forced loyalty promoted by the group. Much of the Islamic world sees them as nothing more than deluded ragtag thugs, with their only vocal supporters being the equality thuggish Boko Haram. In my opinion they cannot go on beheading children, crucifying opponents, mass killing Iraqi solders, destroying millennia old Islamic holy sites and God knows what else before much of the Islamic world starts turning on them, which will inevitably make it easier for the international community to act. I think the longer this goes on the closer we get to situations like Rwanda and Kosovo. We are essentially already seeing attempted genocide with the systematic killing of Christians, Yazidis and Shias, and to top it all off, it's done with added brutality in an age of social media when the world can see. They are, in essence, the Nazis of the Islamic world. The thing is, the sheer guile that ISIS have, combined with the idea of a single caliphate, suggests to me that if they get far enough they will have no issue with entering other sovereign nations to carry the fight on there. I think that is the point where we will inevitably see their collapse, since, of the surrounding nations, Iran is militarily too strong and the rest are western allies. So the real question is when is the problem solved? Do we stop it now or do we wait until they get too big for their boots? Personally I think we owe it to the Iraqis to help them now, not wait until thousands more are dead, only to regret it after the fact. I don't get this half measure announced by the White House to only bomb when American interests are threatened. The Iraqi government has submitted a request for help, so I don't see why we can't just lunch a full scale aerial assault.
The world (Europeans mainly) are quite happy to have U.S. power available. As long as we do things when and where they want it done and it isn't in our direct interests.
Chup: Yes, we have to stop this madness now. Yes, the west has played its part in this tragedy, Bush was an idiot, etc... However, a genocide must be prevented. Now. No time for talking. No time to wait until the sane islamic world is fed up with them. These IS maniacs do not fear death. This is another reason why they are so successful in battle. They can't wait to enter paradise and enjoy all the virgins... Let their dream come true.
And no, Midnight Funeral hasn't hacked my account... I have been reading a lot about the actual situation lately and came to the conclusion that enough is enough. All the talk about "western values" while a genocide is about to happen right before our doorsteps!? We, the West, would lose the rest of our credibility if we allowed this to happen. We failed in Ruanda, etc... Not again! Ok, time to calm down. I will burn a Koran to honor IS and relax...
When you're the big guy on the block, that's how it works. Act too quickly, and you're an expanding empire out to police the world. Act too slowly, and you're a degenerate self indulgent nation that seeks only to please itself on its own timetable. It would be the same if it were any other nation. Prescience seems to be a requirement that no empire has mastered, yet every nation seems to demand. It's just human nature.
Indeed. Incidentally, oldfella might have inadvertently given the perfect example for that: How many people out there basically oppose slavery, oppose racism, but still want to show the Confederate Flag even though they realize it's a symbol of slavery and racism to many, simply because to them, it still represents their resentment of the war that imposed that value system on their ancestors one and a half centuries ago?
I wonder what has to happen for that to happen. We're getting anti-Israeli demonstrations every day here from Muslims and leftists. There was a fight betweed IS fans and Yazidis in Germany (why they are not shown the EU's door immediately is beyond me). Nothing from the Muslim community. They are concentrating on hating Israel, even if they have been here for three generations.
I don't think you can compare that, really. Israel is an ally and a Western democracy. Demonstrations are a feasible manner of communicating with them, and there is a clear intent as to what demonstrators want Israel to change. There is no reason to think IS are interested in our public opinion, and what would demonstrations demand here? Of IS, to stop existing. Of our own governments, what? I at least am helpless to prescribe a way to make this better.
Why is this the job of the US again? I understand these are horrible religious zealots, but we are not the world's police. No one wants us to be, and if we are going to be we certainly should be getting paid for it outside of some powerful contractors making a bundle. If we are going to go in there again why are we not considering places like nigeria, somalia, and North Korea just to name a few. NK even has nukes along with a crazy despot who has inherited a state with a religion where he is god. I am not opposed to some support for another faction coming in, but let us make sure we get something out of it. Also, they are not a present threat to us, and it would be decades before they were. The country is war ravaged. Let Isreal worry about them, because they seem to be doing pretty good in the arab ass kicking game. They could do something aside from killing palestinian civilians for the billions we give them. I do not want to have us play world police. First off we are corrupt and murderous as hell which means we suck at it. Second is I do not see why we should considering those resources and lives could do something good and decent here at home.
Because the US decided that Iraq was its business, and handed it over to the warring factions, after having previously handed it over to Saddam. You can't treat this as if it were just something happening somewhere in the world out of the blue. That's why you could not be --though really, you're considering all of those as well anyway. But having said that, you also need to have something sensible to do in order to act. It's fair to say that there is nothing you can do to make things better, and risking your own lives and killing innocents just to do something isn't a good plan.
Why is that? Just because we fired shots there we now have the responsibility of protecting it forever? Seriously that is just the silly justification that was pushed on us by the MIC and contractors making money off the war. We do not own that country, and we really should not have been there to begin with. It is not a state. It has not been claimed as a US territory that we have responsibility to. We have not even made them an ally yet. We finished up GWB's mistake, and now we should leave. The mucking around we have done in the middle east is one of the causes of this problem. It is time to worry about here instead of how to funnel money into contractors with another war. I am fine with some strikes to help out the enemies of ISIS, but only if we are going to get some respect from their established government when they win. Other than that it is their country and their problem. If you want to talk about a shift in world politics where we actually take responsibility for the planet that is a different story, but right now we are not the heroes, and no one wants us there. It may not be a good plan, but it seems to be our plan in afganistan.
Demonstrations of "our" own Muslim community against the IS scum could show the native population that the Muslim immigrants detest terrorism. Thousands of Muslims screaming "Down with terror, shame on IS, we want peace! No more war! No more beheadings!" Now THAT would be a strong message. But what do we get? Al Qaida flags, Burkas and hateful paroles against Jews. Salafists who give away free copies of their Holy Book. The rest: Silence... Where are the sane, peaceful, levelheaded Muslims? Why don't they make themselves heard? Why do they remain silent? Do they even exist? Your former counsellor said that Islam is part of Germany. He didn't say: "Well, lots of Muslims around here... Seems that Islam has arrived." He said: "Islam is part of Germany, and that's great!" What an idiot... Well, I know we strongly disagree when it comes to Islam in Europe, to say the least. No need discussing it all again. I for one will not vote for my traditional leftist party when the next election comes, for the first time. Because I am sick and tired of the leftist appeasement politics towards radical Muslims. Take the leftist feminists for example: They are always complaining how women are still not paid as much as men while doing the same jobs. Rightly so! But when it comes to Islam and women rights, they don't say a word, because they are afraid of sounding "racist" and intolerant towards another culture. It's laughable. What a bunch of hypocrites. (BTW: I won't vote at all next time, there is no party in Switzerland anymore who represents my political views. Sad but true.)
Well, here is the question I pose because I could not think up an answer to it. How does one end all of this hate? Because the reality is that the reaction there is pretty human, and there are a lot of people agitating it. From an outside perspective who started it has become irrelevant to the solution since both sides are progressing with fighting and war. Those things breed new hatreds, and a bunch of screaming fanboys for both sides. If the US or europe goes in on their own they basically are seen as an occupying force. The vision of foreign military on your home streets would enrage a lot of people even if those military were there to help. You could go in as assistance to a side, but the reality is you have to almost fight for the complete death of the opponents because every kill you make is going to inspire more fighting from your opponents. I just cannot see how to make the sides stop without completely taking over the middle east. Setting up countries for the different factions in a good way, and imprisoning terrorists as criminals rather than fighting a war against them. That solution would be costly, bloody, and it would take a long time to slowly move towards freedom as the people with the old scars and prejudice die off and the young take over with a new mindset free of the wars. And you are absolutely correct if you are thinking there is no country in the world capable of such an undertaking.
Such as the condemnation of ISIS organized by the Central Council of Muslims in Germany? (source) Just because our media are more interested in established narratives doesn't mean it isn't happening. And not just in Germany: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-whod-radicalise-their-children-9569102.html BBC News - UK imams condemn Isis in online video http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28270296 http://www.itv.com/news/central/2014-06-27/muslims-across-midlands-united-against-isis/ Irfan Al-Alawi: Sunni Muslims Must Reject ISIS "Caliphate": http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4461/sunni-muslims-isis-caliphate#.U-ScF9PnN_s.twitter Indonesian Muslims Denounce ISIS Ideology | The Jakarta Globe: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/indonesian-muslims-denounce-isis-ideology/#.U-ScCEBfcLM.twitter Hundreds of Muslims Join Pro-Christian, Anti-ISIS Rally in Baghdad http://bit.ly/1pBqtyN via @BreitbartNews
Ok, point taken. However, what happens on the streets and is visible for the native population is a whole different thing. Not even mentioning what goes on on youtube. The levelheaded, peaceful Muslims must get louder. Much louder! Saïda Keller-Messahli is a prominent progressive Muslim woman here in Switzerland. She tries to make herself heard and gets lots of attention in the media as an example of a "good Muslim". Problem is, she gets death threats by her own people on a regular basis.
Chup thought I was taking a dig at him, but of course I was not. I was pointing out the similarities between what he said and what is often said almost to the letter about another subject.
But it isn't similar. It's as dissimilar as saying that something happened and saying it is good that it happened.
How? So far, we've got demonstrations, public statements, as well as religious and governmental sanctions. What else would you like to see? Should they fir some rockets from a public schoolyard? That does seem to be the best bet for getting into the headlines, and your attention. "Her own people"? Of course she gets death threats from the murderous radicals she's speaking out against. But if you go away from that assuming that they are her people, while she, a Msulim, doesn't speak for any Muslims, she might as well shut up and stay safe instead.
I don't think our views are that far apart. I'd argue that you haven't finished up GWB's mistake, and all of us in the West haven't finished up the mistakes of the first Gulf War and the support for Saddam that lead up to it. But at the same time, there is no way to fix those mistakes. So yes, we should leave, but "we've done what we could" or "we no longer owe them" is the wrong slogan. "We messed this up, and we can't help it." is a vital insight here, because we need to remember it when the next GWB comes along and proposes another mistake.
