Women Have Really Strong Sex Drives: Can Men Handle This?

$corp · Jun 7, 2013

Potential NSFW (Classical painting of nude woman)
http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/ar...y-strong-sex-drives-can-men-handle-it/276598/

Turns Out Women Have Really, Really Strong Sex Drives: Can Men Handle It?

Women want sex far more than we've been allowed to believe. So suggests a new book that shatters many of our most cherished myths about desire, including the widespread assumption that women's lust is inextricably bound up with emotional connection. Are men ready to cope with the reality of heterosexual women's horniness? The evidence suggests we aren't, at least not yet.

In his just-released What Do Women Want? Adventures in the Science of Female Desire journalist Daniel Bergner suggests that when it comes to acknowledging just how much women lust, we've passed the point of no return. Bergner profiles the work of a series of sexologists, all of whom have, after a series of fascinating studies with animal and human subjects, come to what is essentially the same conclusion. Women want sex just as much as men do, and this drive is "not, for the most part, sparked or sustained by emotional intimacy and safety." When it comes to the craving for sexual variety, the research Bergner assembles suggests that women may be "even less well-suited for monogamy than men."

Bergner's work puts what may be the last nail in the coffin of the old consensus that women use sex as a means to get something else they really want, such as enduring monogamous emotional intimacy and the goods and safety that come in marriage with a protector and provider. In her review, Salon's normally hyperbole-averse Tracy Clark-Flory was beside herself: "This book should be read by ever woman on earth," she writes; "the implications are huge."

It's not, of course, as if feminism, or Internet porn, or any other feature of modernity has suddenly created desires that never previously existed. Rather, as Bergner and his researchers show, science is finally asking the right questions about what women want, perhaps because enough of us are ready to hear the answer. The broad and enthusiastic coverage of What Do Women Want—Amanda Hess at Slate and Ann Friedman at The Cut are nearly as swept away as Clark-Flory—suggests a collective cry of relief: At last, irrefutable evidence that women are so much more like men, and so much more full of erotic potential, than we had ever admitted.

Yet acknowledging that women are as horny as men (if not hornier) isn't enough to guarantee equality, just as the recognition that women are increasingly adept at breadwinning doesn't ensure pay equity. Even as we see more and more evidence that women want what men want, antiquated sexual scripts mean that women are caught, as Friedman puts it, in a "catch-22" with "few options." But is that dilemma one for which both sexes are equally responsible?

Some say yes. Friedman quotes dating expert Chiara Atik:
Everyone's being kind of wishy-washy... Women want sex, but they don't want to be seen as forward (or worse, desperate). Men want sex but are intimidated, unconfident, or don't want to be seen as domineering. We're not sure who should be the sexual instigators, and then no one really steps up to the plate.
That explanation appeals, but it also rests on a false assumption that the risks of playing "instigator" are equal for both sexes. To continue Atik's baseball imagery, it's only very recently that women have even begun to be allowed to compete as equals on the sexual playing field; the rules of the game are still written largely for the benefit of men. To say that women want sex and are afraid of being slut-shamed while men want sex but are afraid of being rejected falsely posits that these are equally consequential experiences. "Slut-shaming" serves as both a precursor and an excuse for sexual violence. "She was asking for it," the classic defense of the rapist, is based on the assumption that a woman who instigates a sexual encounter, "deserves" whatever ill treatment she gets. As real as men's anxiety about being "shot down" might be, it's hardly comparable to women's equally justifiable fear of rape. Margaret Atwood's famous remark that "men are afraid that women will laugh at them; women are afraid that men will kill them" clarifies that distinction nicely.

If Bergner is right, men's and women's libidos are far more similar than previously imagined. If he's right, and the formidable data he marshals suggests he is, then our sexual scripts need to shift to accommodate this new reality for everyone's sake. Both men and women need to overcome what Atik calls their "wishy-washiness," and be willing to deal with the discomfort that comes from stepping outside of prescribed gender roles. That's easier said than done; as Friedman notes in her article, the data suggests that even among the young, a significant majority of both men and women think it's the job of men to make the proverbial "first move."

When it comes to rethinking instigation, young heterosexuals could do well to learn from gays and lesbians. As Liza Mundy pointed out last month, same-sex couples have much to teach straights about how to have a happier marriage. "From sex to fighting, from child-rearing to chores, they must hammer out every last detail of domestic life without falling back on assumptions about who will do what." Bergner's considerable data suggests that when it comes to initiating sex, straight men and women will be a lot happier if they follow the lead of their gay and lesbian friends.

The research suggests that though both men and women struggle to extricate themselves from traditional gender roles, women are generally doing a much better job of it than are men. From the workplace to the university, women are far more willing to move into traditionally male spaces and adopt traditionally male behaviors than men are to do the reverse. Too many men are still stuck in the "provide, protect, and perform" model that requires women to be passive, focused more on pleasing than on their own pleasure. The "catch-22" in which women find themselves is largely a result of men's fear of being unable to perform up to women's expectations—and to satisfy desires that men have only just begun to realize are as intense and earthy as their own.

Freud's famous question, "What do women want?" has always invited another query in return: "Can you handle the answer if we tell you?" The widespread coverage of Bergner's book raises at least the possibility that some men are. And what is at the heart of that answer? Though some women surely still want to play at passivity while men protect, provide, and perform, plenty more women want another "p" word: partners. Flexible, unintimidated, and (as Bergner shows) playful partners in the bedroom, in the kitchen, and in public life.

"The sexual landscape (remains) ruled by male desires and insecurities," Amanda Hess writes in her Slate review of What Do Women Want. It is those insecurities (and the specter of the violence into which those insecurities sometimes erupt) that keep men from having their sexual desires fulfilled. As this new book shows, women's desires are fully equal to men's—and equally confined by men's maddening unwillingness to abandon the useless sexual scripts they themselves have written.
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There is also an interview with the author of the book at the Salon review; that can be found here:
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/02/the_truth_about_female_desire_its_base_animalistic_and_ravenous/

A couple of the more interesting (to me) questions and answers:

You point out some remarkable ways that scientists have ignored evidence suggesting that women — and female animals — are far from passive when it comes to sex and are in fact often initiators. Do you have a favorite example of this?

I really do. Deidrah, a rhesus monkey, a member of the species that we sent into space in the ’60s as our doubles, to see how well we would survive, is one of my favorite characters in the book. I went down and spent a while at a primatology center with a scientist who was trying to take the blinders off the way we see the sexuality of our closest ancestors. And what I learned was that for decades, despite evidence to the contrary, scientists had painted primate sex as male dominated. Males are the initiators; females the sort of almost indifferent receivers.

But standing next to this scientist Kim Wallen, it was clear that that was not at all true — almost comically so. We spent a day following Deidrah, a relatively tranquil, low-key female monkey, who was nevertheless relentlessly stalking — sexually stalking — her object of desire. If there’s any objectification going on in the monkey kingdom, it’s the females objectifying the males, chasing them, and sort of all but forcing them. It wasn’t just Deidrah, of course — it was all the female monkeys that we were following, and it was just alarming how we could be so sure of this other reality, and blind to the truth that was just staring us right in the face. So that was one example of our blindness to female sexuality and, ultimately I think, our fear of it.

Quickly, back to women for a second, a quick example, if we can get a little graphic for a sec, about understanding the size and reach of the clitoris. We’ve been doing dissections of bodies for centuries, pretty effectively, but it wasn’t until very recently that there was any acknowledgment of extensions right underneath the surface of the skin — very rich in nerves, very primed for pleasure, reachable there through the vaginal walls — that rival the size of the penis; probably are greater than the size of the penis. One of the scientists, who was really influential in calling attention to the size, put it this way: the reason we’ve ignored this is because we’ve managed to convince ourselves that one gender is all about reproduction and the other is all about sex. That is, women are all about reproduction and men are all about sex. Again, a complete distortion.

Some of the evidence suggesting that female sexuality is stronger than is typically suggested is based on plethysmograph (a tool used to measure vaginal blood-flow and lubrication) studies showing that women become physically aroused to a much wider array of visual stimuli than men (even as they subjectively report a much smaller range of arousal). But what of the hypothesis presented by researcher Meredith Chivers, that vaginal lubrication might not be a reliable measure of female desire, that it is a separate system, an evolutionary adaptation, meant to protect females from sexual violence and bodily harm? If this proved to be true, what would it mean for all these plethysmograph studies?

Now you’re at the most complicated part of this whole field, I think. So, let me pause and try to be coherent. OK, so, if that were true — underline if –that were true, that is, if there really are two separate sexual systems, one represented by these physical responses and the other represented by the very subjective sense of desiring, then [these plethysmograph discoveries] would be less relevant to understanding desire. But, I think that both Meredith and I have started to wrestle with a simpler interpretation: that the physical responses, registered in the plethysmography, really might well be a measure of being turned on, being in a state of desire. So, with the range of things that she’s exposed women to in the lab — that would be straight women watching two women together, two men together, men and women, and of course, famously, two monkeys having sex — both straight and gay women have consistently responded very powerfully and immediately, physically, to all these kinds of images. And I think, in Meredith’s mind, that really does represent something about desire.

On the subject of rape and sexual assault, and the fact that, also in the lab, women are responding generally to scenarios of sexual assault. Here’s where we get into a really tricky space, so I hope you have space for this when we’re talking about desire. No one, no one, no one — not Meredith, not Marta Meana, and not me — is in any way retracting “no means no.” That’s number one. Number two is, there are different levels of desire and of fantasy, and you know, fantasy and sexual assault in one form or another are pretty common, but does that mean that any of us want to go out and be sexually assaulted? No, it doesn’t. The realm of arousal and the realm of fantasy can tell us something about ourselves psychologically without indicating that we really want to experience that thing, far from it.

Since we’re on the topic of rape fantasies, can we talk about why they are so common among women?

I mean here, again, I want to be careful because, number one, I’m a man. You know I’ve listened a lot at this point and asked a lot of relentless questions, but my answer is going to be inherently a fallible one.

The force of culture puts some level of shame on women’s sexuality and a fantasy of sexual assault is a fantasy that allows for sex that is completely free of blame. So that’s one reason. Another, which Meana brings up, and which I think is very compelling, is this idea that the feeling of being desired is a very powerful one, a very electrical one. And I think at least at the fantasy level, that sense of being wanted, and being wanted beyond the man’s self-control is also really powerful.
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Kelly, can you handle this?
Michelle, can you handle this?
Beyoncé, can you handle this?
I don't think they can handle this!

I think this is true. If I were a woman, I'd play with my tits and ass all day!

Also, regarding rape fantasies, Rapey McCreppypuff would've loved this thread. How has Ted Wolf been these days?

Clyde · Jun 7, 2013

$corp said: ↑

Women Have Really Strong Sex Drives: Can Men Handle This?
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Oh yes, a resounding yes. Men would love nothing more than women equally casual about sex!

Asyncritus · Jun 7, 2013

...a series of sexologists, all of whom have, after a series of fascinating studies with animal and human subjects...
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Do I really want to know more?

John Castle · Jun 7, 2013

Asyncritus said: ↑

...a series of sexologists, all of whom have, after a series of fascinating studies with animal and human subjects...
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Do I really want to know more?

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Sure. There's stuff in the book about researchers fingerbanging female rats.

The Original Faceman · Jun 7, 2013

Dayton would hate this thread.

Five stars.

Dr. Krieg · Jun 7, 2013

I hope I can handle it, my lady almost killed my out of shape self last night.

Rimjob Bob · Jun 7, 2013

I have no doubt that women naturally hunger for sex just as much as men. The problem is that they've been socially conditioned that they have value only when they're conservative about it. Which is a huge shame for both genders.

It's an equal shame when men are stigmatized for not having the stereotypically dominant sex drive.

Nautica · Jun 7, 2013

So how come I never meet any of these women?!?

Nova · Jun 7, 2013

social conditioning.

A. she doesn't want to seem a slut or

B. you met her and rejected her because you considered her a slut.

Nautica · Jun 7, 2013

Nova said: ↑

social conditioning.

A. she doesn't want to seem a slut or

B. you met her and rejected her because you considered her a slut.
Click to expand...

I may have rejected girls in the past for being ugly,fat, obnoxious, mean, smelly, dull, dangerous, high maintenance, etc..., but I can guarantee you that I've never personally rejected a girl because I thought I might get some!

14thDoctor · Jun 8, 2013

Nautica said: ↑

Nova said: ↑

social conditioning.

A. she doesn't want to seem a slut or

B. you met her and rejected her because you considered her a slut.
Click to expand...

I may have rejected girls in the past for being ugly,fat, obnoxious, mean, smelly, dull, dangerous, high maintenance, etc..., but I can guarantee you that I've never personally rejected a girl because I thought I might get some!
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So you fucked each and every ugly,fat, obnoxious, mean, smelly, dull, dangerous, high maintenance, etc woman that offered?

Nautica · Jun 8, 2013

14thDoctor said: ↑

Nautica said: ↑

Nova said: ↑

social conditioning.

A. she doesn't want to seem a slut or

B. you met her and rejected her because you considered her a slut.
Click to expand...

I may have rejected girls in the past for being ugly,fat, obnoxious, mean, smelly, dull, dangerous, high maintenance, etc..., but I can guarantee you nthat I've never personally rejected a girl because I thought I might get some!
Click to expand...

So you fucked each and every ugly,fat, obnoxious, mean, smelly, dull, dangerous, high maintenance, etc woman that offered?
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No, but I also didn't rejected them BECAUSE they offered...which is what Nova was saying in part B).

Nova · Jun 8, 2013

Nautica said: ↑

Nova said: ↑

social conditioning.

A. she doesn't want to seem a slut or

B. you met her and rejected her because you considered her a slut.
Click to expand...

I may have rejected girls in the past for being ugly,fat, obnoxious, mean, smelly, dull, dangerous, high maintenance, etc..., but I can guarantee you that I've never personally rejected a girl because I thought I might get some!
Click to expand...

Not that you thought you might - that you thought everyone else had.

You might be the exception. But I've known plenty of girls with high sex drives, and they often WERE - in fact - sluts (understand that I do not consider that a bad thing) and the guys divided neatly into those who said "who cares? i'm getting laid" and the ones who didn't want to travel such a well worn path.

Girls on the other hand are conditioned, beyond the whole BS of "good girls don't" to believe that a lot of guys might want to have sex with you but none of them will want to marry you if you have that kind of reputation...so even if they do WANT to get laid early and often, they restrain themselves because they have been taught guys don't want that sort of girl for a relationship.

Which is often true.

Essentially, a contest of mind games based on a series of false or misleading impressions feeding off each other.

Amaris · Jun 8, 2013

I need to become a sexologist.

Dayton Kitchens · Jun 9, 2013

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.

Soma · Jun 9, 2013

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
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Are you criticizing God's work?

Dayton Kitchens · Jun 9, 2013

Soma said: ↑

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
Click to expand...

Are you criticizing God's work?
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Even if I was that is between me and God and not your concern.

Soma · Jun 9, 2013

Dayton3 said: ↑

Soma said: ↑

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
Click to expand...

Are you criticizing God's work?
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Even if I was that is between me and God and not your concern.
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If it's between you and God, why did you bring it up in public?

gul · Jun 9, 2013

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
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It certainly would be a better place had your parents sex drives been considerably weaker.

Rimjob Bob · Jun 9, 2013

Dayton3 said: ↑

Soma said: ↑

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
Click to expand...

Are you criticizing God's work?
Click to expand...

Even if I was that is between me and God and not your concern.
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Wow. One really can't make this shit up.

Shirogayne · Jun 9, 2013

Dayton3 said: ↑

Soma said: ↑

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
Click to expand...

Are you criticizing God's work?
Click to expand...

Even if I was that is between me and God and not your concern.
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Funny, I could say the same thing about pre-marital sex and abortion.

TheLonelySquire · Jun 9, 2013

Anna said: ↑

Dayton3 said: ↑

Soma said: ↑

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
Click to expand...

Are you criticizing God's work?
Click to expand...

Even if I was that is between me and God and not your concern.
Click to expand...

Funny, I could say the same thing about pre-marital sex and abortion.
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Yeah, Dayton! ...murder is a private matter!

Tamar Garish · Jun 9, 2013

Anna said: ↑

Funny, I could say the same thing about pre-marital sex and abortion.
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Well, when people stop expecting the public to pay for their birth control and abortions I will agree with that 100%.

Shirogayne · Jun 9, 2013

Tamar Garish said: ↑

Anna said: ↑

Funny, I could say the same thing about pre-marital sex and abortion.
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Well, when people stop expecting the public to pay for their birth control and abortions I will agree with that 100%.
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I can understand where you're coming from, but from the way I see it, pills are far cheaper to taxpayers than the care of a child for eighteen years (usually more since many perpetuate the cycle rather than get out of it).

oldfella1962 · Jun 9, 2013

Nova said: ↑

social conditioning.

A. she doesn't want to seem a slut or

B. you met her and rejected her because you considered her a slut.
Click to expand...

Bullshit. Nobody rejects a bed-hopper, unless it's a marriage situation.
I don't want a virgin. Let Captain Kirk go "where no man has gone before."

Diacanu · Jun 9, 2013

Anna said: ↑

Tamar Garish said: ↑

Anna said: ↑

Funny, I could say the same thing about pre-marital sex and abortion.
Click to expand...

Well, when people stop expecting the public to pay for their birth control and abortions I will agree with that 100%.
Click to expand...

I can understand where you're coming from, but from the way I see it, pills are far cheaper to taxpayers than the care of a child for eighteen years (usually more since many perpetuate the cycle rather than get out of it).
Click to expand...

An ounce of prevention's worth a shit-ton of treatments.

Ebeneezer Goode · Jun 9, 2013

Hardly a surprise, after my last major relationship break up I spent a year cultivating a nice array of fuck buddies - all aware of each other, and we all knew it was companionship and sex, with no promise of it being anything other than that.

Great sex, no relationship bullshit getting in the way, just fun, laughter and orgasms.

They were eager, and no small amount of experimentation went on, and by and large they came on to me.

Tragically I went and fucked things up by falling in love with someone a couple of months back!

Rimjob Bob · Jun 9, 2013

Is it so much a matter of taxpayer-funded contraception, or private insurers cherry-picking what medical services to offer based on archaic moral standards?

Asyncritus · Jun 10, 2013

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
Click to expand...

It would certainly be an emptier place...

Black Dove · Jun 10, 2013

Dayton3 said: ↑

Personally, the world would probably be a better place if most peoples sex drives were considerably weaker.
Click to expand...

The result of which would mean that there would certainly be less people in the world, which would be a great thing.

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Women Have Really Strong Sex Drives: Can Men Handle This?

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Women Have Really Strong Sex Drives: Can Men Handle This?

$corp Dirty Old Chinaman

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Asyncritus Expert on everything

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Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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Soma OMG WTF LOL STFU ROTFL!!!

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Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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