Obamacare Could Ruin Hobby Lobby- A Great Crafts Chain

The requirement under Obamacare that companies offer health care insurance to their employees that cover birth control including those that are considered to be abortion could subject Hobby Lobby, a 514 store retail chain that has been business for 40 years to 1.3 million dollars in fines per day. Or more than 400 million in fines a year.

Hobby Lobby is a great store. My wife and daughter love it. I like looking at the models of aircraft, ships, science fiction vehicles, train sets, posters and what have you. Three of my Christmas gifts this year came from there. A model of the Enterprise-C (Ambassador class) and two posters. Rockets of the World and the Evolution of Trains.

Our novelty useless president strikes again.

Local Sherrifs should protect hobby lobby and the local banks that should handle their money.

I doubt that would help. Aren't the fines handled via the IRS?

At any rate, a company that employees 21,000 people faces possible ruin if they do not agree to violate their owners well established principles even though they have operated under them for four decades.

This is the second time in as many days that ypu've used this phrase. Sokar admits that it's deliberate racism. Do you, or is there some other manner in which Obama is a "novelty"?

The only reason Barack Obama was even NOMINATED to be president Rick (much less elected) is because he is black.

If he was a white man, his background wouldn't have gotten him through the first primaries. If he was white, many of his public statements (like mocking how people in some parts of America "cling to their guns and God") would've ruined him even worse than the infamous "Dean scream" ruined Howard Dean.

If Barack Obama was not a black man, he would NEVER, NEVER have been elected president of the U.S. (Hillary Clinton probably would've though I detest her as well).

And virtually everyone knows that though many will never admit it.

Never heard of the Hobby Lobby. Even if we hate the law, we all need to be subject to the same one with the same rules. If they think they are above that then fuck them.

at this thread.

Being the wonderful Christian and human that you are, you should start a donation rally immediately. Once the law abiding shop is safe, you could all put on white hoodies and go out for beer, bowling and lynching a nigger.

So far your avatar is the best thing in this thread

What about those sects that think suffering is good for the soul - will they be exempt from covering analgesics and anesthesia? Do bigots who think God gave gay people AIDS get out of covering treatment for the disease? Will wackier groups like Christian Scientists have to have anything for modern medicine?

This whole matter just shows how ridiculous it is to have your health coverage tied to your employment.

Agreed. They should rescind the laws that give employers tax benefits for offering health insurance.

Hobby Lobby has consciously chosen to go the Papa John's route.

If corporations are people, and people are supposed to be responsible for the consequences of their own actions, why is Conservaforge ?

Actually, I think that is one of the major problems with the entire American system. One of my major complaints with Obamacare is that, instead of making the slightest effort to deal with that fundamental flaw, it made it a closer tie than ever.

Another vote for a single-payer system...

^ I see your reading comprehension is as dismal as ever...

Here's the thing:

Assuming for the sake of the post that birth control is sinful (else why would Hobby Lobby be objecting?)...

The provision of the opportunity to do a sinful thing DOES NOT make one responsible for another's free-will choice to do that thing.

If you believe that drinking beer is sinful and Walmart sells beer, you DO NOT get to blame Walmart because you made a free will choice to buy and consume that beer.

Likewise, if your company insurance provides the opportunity to obtain and use birth control, they bear exactly ZERO responsibility for YOUR free-will choice to obtain and use this evil medication.

People are responsible for THEIR OWN moral choices. Until you start tying them down and injecting them with birth control, it's not on you.

That's what being a free moral agent (as the bible teaches) is all about.

Now, to the extent you - as a company - have a CHOICE to do or not do (as in Walmart has a choice to sell or not sell beer) then sure, choose according to whatever ethics you believe in. But if you were required to sell beer, that doesn't make you morally responsible when someone buys one. I've never yet checked out and had the cashier say "Where the hell is your required beer purchase?"

Maybe they could get a waiver?

Oh, wait...those are reserved for Obama's supporters.

If the owners of Hobby Lobby stood on principle and paid the fines I would be impressed by their stubbornness. They would also win the Douchebags of the Year Award as countless employees would be laid off. But hey, who cares about the livelihood of middle class families when you have a War on Lady Parts to wage.

Then you need an eye exam.

IIRC, you're relatively pleased with the system in France. But if it's at all connected with Obama, it must be bad, eh?

It's still early...the night is young!

BTW Hobby Lobby is a pretty good store. They took over the building in Augusta when Circuit City tanked.

They should do what any corporation who wants to stick it to government does these days: Part time hours for all.

You read Jezebel. How quaint.

Good point! A real American would find a loophole to stick it to Uncle Sugar (without hurting their employees). :santa_ok:

Let me tell you something, as one professional word-weaver to another: If you want people to take you seriously, then say what you mean, and take other people's words at face value. Your constant games fool no one. You try to pretend that you know more about everything than anyone by never actually saying what you think, then by twisting people's words around. You don't like it when people "put words in your mouth" but you do it constantly with others.

I won't play your games. I never have, and I know you don't like me for that, because I call a spade a spade, but to me, the kind of clear communication I prefer is a far better use of language than your tap-dancing games.

I won't pretend you are too stupid to understand what I wrote, because I know you better than that. You have lied about me in the past, on multiple occasions, and I ignored you studiously for years because of it. But since I started talking to you again, you have continued to play the same silly games. This response is already more than your nonsense deserves. There will not be any more.

Now go ahead and "get the last word" as you always need to do. I don't mind at all.

[YT="Shut up! Ssssh! Ssssh!"]NGYUfPiKZMI[/YT]

Hobby Lobby is...okay. They don't have much of a plastic model kit selection, but their 40% off coupons can often make for a good bargain, especially on more expensive kits. Ten years ago or thereabouts, they'd sometimes have big sales on plastic kits (30-50% off) and the local stores would still take the 40% coupon as well, which I don't think they were supposed to do.

I always say what I mean. The problem in the Red Room, and only in the Red Room, is multifaceted. It starts with Tamar's dictate that "Nobody would say that IRL." Be happy to elaborate on that if you're interested.

As for taking other people's words at face value, in a forum where trolling is de rigueur? How exactly is that supposed to work? Either "Everybody's playing a role" (Tamar again), in which case no one's word is to be trusted or, more realistically, some posters are consistently honest, some are consistently not, and others play different roles depending on their mood and whom they're addressing.

The latter makes more sense, and that's how I measure my responses. You're free to go back to ignoring my posts. But save your sermons for the pulpit.

Hobby Lobby just lost thier law suit and rightly so. They're not a religious group so they don't qualify for the exemption and must follow the same rules for health insurance as every other company. :santa_ok:

Yep...if it's now mandatory that people pay for health care, how the fuck is that supposed to work, if they have no jobs?

Even now, it's not impossible to pay for health insurance out of pocket--plenty of plans exist, but most people accept the conventional wisdom of having your employer pay for health care instead...which means it usually gets dropped the moment you leave the place.

That, and the fact that insurance now pays for everything from mere doctor visits to major surgery, so the price on everything skyrockets. I remember you telling me that the health care in France has elements of UHC, but that people are allowed to choose which items they're willing to pay out of pocket expenses for. And I'd bet for most people, paying even 120 bucks for a once-a-year doctor visit and medication is a hell of a lot cheaper than 1200 dollars a year just to have the access to a doctor.

There's a lower income cutoff (I don't recall what it is offhand, but it's in the legislation).

Depends on what you mean by "impossible." If you're 20-something, a non-smoker, have no dependents and no preexisting conditions, and you're not below the poverty line, an individual insurance policy (as opposed to the bulk rates employers get) is usually affordable. However, prior to full implementation of the ACA (i.e., right now):

• It varies widely state-by-state.
  If you need family coverage, double the premiums you'd pay as an individual. Pregnancy coverage? That's extra.
  Preexisting condition (e.g., asthma, type 1 diabetes)? You're SOL.
  Premiums go up in five-year increments. On your 25th birthday, you're paying more than you were the day before.
  Then there are the deductibles. The lower the premium, the higher the deductible. If the insurance doesn't kick in until after you've paid $5,000 a year out of pocket, and you happen to need tests or treatment that cost $4,999, you're also SOL.

Just for fun, choose a random set of variables (age, smoking status, pregnancy coverage, family plan) and check out the premiums here:

www.ehealthinsurance.com

For some people, "affordable" health insurance is only affordable if they skip things like rent or food.

And that's the fault of the perfect storm of for-profit insurers, doctors, and pharma companies. Before the for-profits entered the market, it was possible to buy insurance for catastrophic coverage only - i.e., to cover the costs of hospitalization. You paid for doctor visits out of pocket, so it was incumbent on doctors to keep their fees low and to only order necessary tests.

Those days are long gone.

I'd say we should have reformed this part of health care first, then. The new system now will just make things worse...and we all know how slow the government is in paying anything it owes. Doctors hate having to deal with Medicaid, because it can take months to receive compensation for a service that was rendered today, and they have bills to pay like everyone else.