Considering that nobody has addressed the few points of reason I've tried to inject into this conversation, I think I'll leave you all to your constructive bickering.
I can see the utility of this as a ruse meant to cause the target to self-ban. As in, "Psh, that place has gone completely to shit. Serves 'em right, haw haw haw!" and off he wanders to make some other board his next target.
That's essentially what the tool was originally designed for, but I found it had far better potential as another method of stopping spammers, and banned members who create troll duals to circumvent those bans. So a few tweaks here and there, and now a tool designed for something else is helping to reinforce and cover what a simple IP ban couldn't.
As someone who found the shelter thread before this one as I haven't been paying attention to the Help Desk this statement of your is quite false. You may not like what she wrote but she is not trolling. She placed the same valid points to you, Gul and John that other members have. That's a stunningly low opinion of a staff member you have there. If you feel he's that gullible to Tamar you might want to fire him. So is this true? If Skrain who has shown that he can get around IP bans can still get around this then what is the point? Yep. Simple. That's what it comes down to. Our community organizer Ancalagon has gotten himself a disciple. Together they think they are smarter then everyone on this board. That fact leads them to not understanding the board members and then making stupid decisions like this discouragement tool. It's such a simple thing you would think they would see it but they just blunder straight into it anyway without a care in the world because in their world only they know what is best for Wordforge. Gul? I think he knows it was a boneheaded move. I think he still likes the chaos.
Tamar has no idea how Discourage works. None. She has a description that tafkats posted, but she hasn't seen it work firsthand, she hasn't used it, and she doesn't know what methods it uses, nor what I do to supplement its effectiveness.
Yet when we ask you to detail to use how it works you tell us it's all a big secret. So your denigrating of @Tamar Garish doesn't really hold water. I'm seeing someone who, despite her past reputation, is correctly calling you on something that stinks. You refuse to explain the full extent of this device. You refuse to confirm that no other members may be innocently caught up with this device. You refuse to explain how this is a superior option to outright permabans and you refuse to address any of the concerns of the membership, which have been vocal in their objections and silent on their acceptance. A farce from start to finish, and certainly not what I expect from any of the people involved in this based on your past values and politics.
What you want to know is what methodology I use, and I'd be an idiot to share that information in a public forum. Where did I refuse to confirm no other members may be innocently caught up? I said the likelihood was minimal, and that if it happened, it could be easily rectified, he says, as he continues addressing the concerns of the membership.
Discourage is only used in rare instances, on members who have been banned for posting illegal or disruptive material, and who have attempted to circumvent that ban. Elim Garak has repeatedly circumvented IP bans. If something isn't working, I'm not going to keep using it.
I'm pretty sure people either aren't reading all of the answer, or purposefully ignoring parts of it. How else to explain Dicky's question?
Yes, because when signing up to this forum new members are expected to read and accept the FAQs that existing members have already had to accept. Those FAQs have always set out explicitly what the penalties are for rule breaches. Now you are saying that members will be targeted for transgressions that are determined in secret and penalised with punishments that are also secret. Frankly I'm really getting sick of the obtuse attitude of the three stooges advocating this. None of you are idiots and you must well have comprehended the argument that many of us are making over this. The continual bullshit is a great big middle finger to all of us. Why? The penalties for rule breaches have never been secret. Why are they now? "Minimal and rectified" confirms that innocent posters may get caught up in it and then have to come begging to the mods/admins. That is unacceptable, no matter what spin you put on it. Frankly this is the worst moderating idea in the history of this board, and considering the tension and debate that even minor rule changes have caused in the past, the very fact that you refuse you even entertain what is being raised here is deeply disturbing. This is not a case of "teh drama", to use an old WF cliché. This is actually a rather serious augmentation to the nature of the board. Unfortunately the very three stooges pushing this, who , in the past, have robustly claimed to believe in civil liberties no less, just don't want to accept the problem, or even discuss it.
How about "the answer" doesn't convince? Probably because "the answer" doesn't actually answer all of the questions raised....which, let's face it, you damn well know. You really aren't that stupid or obtuse. Just too full of your own pride. Or is this the time when I get to call you a troll in the Help Desk for cherry picking bits of John's "explanation" to pretend there is total transparency, while continually dismissing the substantial objection to this function? Ya know, now that calling people trolls in the Help Desk is admin approved and all.....
Johns methodology likely involves installing spyware onto garaks computer in order to compensate for new IPs. That or he's banning all members with IP addresses from theta state in which garak resides.
Are you now arguing he should have free posting access, same as everybody else? You're all over the map here, but regarding your various oh noes about secret courts and hidden prisons and what not, that's really pretty silly, don't you think? The Shelter thread was published, we also have this thread. Very secretive! See, that's why I'm having trouble crediting your argument, because it's patent bullshit. Packard and a few others seem to sort of have something coherent, though in my opinion based on misreading what the tool is. Maybe we have failed to articulate a decent description. But in simplest terms, it's a collection of several other things that every previous owner has used ala carte. It's a shame that people are unable to get that, but it's nothing more mystifying than that.
Yes. If you know who he is either let him post or ban him. Shit or get off the pot FFS. Naturally. Wouldn't expect a reply from yo without the requiste put down. . What is silly about it? If there are punishments we are unaware of, how can we guess the parameters of behaviour that might encourage them? Neither of which fully details this measure, unless you are now claiming that @John 's routine insistence that there are elements we must no know are figments of our imagination? No, you just don't want to have to address it. Then why is it that those very same people have included me in their descriptions of people who have put forward reason points on this? Oh, but no. Chup's a TROLL!!!!! Isn't he? TROLL. TROLL. TROLL. TROLL. TROLL. So cowardly and tiresome. You really are acting like a cunt towards me now....and you can give me a warning for that if it makes you fell like the big man. Absolutely without question. Bull. All previous measure were open and transparent. Well, clearly the whole lot of us are drooling morons who don't have the ability to rise to your genius level of understanding.......or maybe there is some validity in what is being said.......fancy that!
Leftists..... let me clarify that..... AMERICAN leftists always know what's best for you. It's not a problem for them so it shouldn't be a problem for you.
I don't know why I bother. Seriously Chup, you are smarter than this. There are no punishments that have not been listed in both threads. John is talking about technical aspects of enforcement. Example: we ban somebody, do we explain what prevents the person from posting? No. The punishment is banning, the tools are varied, but exist to prevent somebody from circumventing the ban. That's an example. There are many ways to circumvent a ban, many ways to counter such efforts. "Discouragement" is a basket of tools to enforce whatever level of restriction we've selected. You should be able to understand why John refuses to print a blue print on how to bypass the basket of tools.
This. To add, I have no problem answering questions, but for the love of Gort, @El Chup, could we limit the cries of fascism to one post per thread? Yes! What @El Chup seems to want is a blueprint of what it takes to make everything work, and as I said before, I'd be an idiot to explain that in a public forum.
"Chup - you're are smarter than this - until you say something I don't want to hear, in which case you're a troll and an idiot" I'm still waiting to hear why "the basket of tools" isn't detailed in the board rules or FAQs and how discouragement is foolproof and can never be circumvented using the same methods as one would to get around a ban. I'm also still waiting to here why the serious objections to this measure from many posters aren't worth listening to.
I'd like to hear where I've said Discourage is foolproof and can never be circumvented. I'm fairly certain I've said the opposite of that, in fact.
I which case you undermine the whole point of this tool. Why fuck around and troll people when you can just ban them?
Clearly trolling now. So tell me, why have you never complained that the code associated with rep isn't published?
Chup, it makes sense that they don't want to discuss the mechanism by which the software knows you are a spammer. They don't want to help people figure out how to bypass the software. Of course, I also can't think of something like this that couldn't be found in Xenforo support or somewhere else on the 'net... It doesn't make sense, however, that they won't make it clear--to the person being punished--that they are being punished, for what reason, and what they need to do to get unpunished.
Or if as Ancalagon tells us he wants Skrain to get "better" why not flood control him? Prevent him from posting more then once every hour. Can't post no pictures. Ban any duals he makes but leave the main account open so maybe he will realize he's on the wrong path in life and will turn from the dark-side and become a good poster.
