Obama's such a foreign policy expert...

linky

At least he's consistent. Consistently wrong, that is. Obama says we should bring OBL to justice but avoid turning him into a martyr. Fine, tell us how, newbie. The rhetorical devices here sound a lot like his other speeches. Lots of words, very little real substance. Gitmo's bad? OK. What's your solution? Don't have one, huh? Like Nuremberg? Fine. Show us how that's going to work in today's legal and political environment.

Jimmy Carter 2, here we come.

JC, at least, had some principles he lived by that were consistent.

And Carter had some executive experience as governor and some military experience in the Navy. Obama has the Presidential qualifications of an underclassmen International Studies/Poly Sci major.

Hope 'n change aren't the basis of government...

Welcome to the Postmodern Presidency.

There is no dispute there. In fact I think that Carter was probably one of the most honest Presidents we had in the 20th Century. I don't think that says much overall, but I think he genuinely believed in what he was doing and was honest about it.

I suppose that the easiest way to not turn Osama into a martyr would be to put him on trial with all the openness and safeguards that our system can offer.

Which is ironic because the person who actually planned 9/11 and other major attacks would then get better treatment from our justice system than lesser offenders, and worse, people who were completely innocent.

I think you're missing the point. If it was a case of just sending the county deputy over to Osama's cave to execute an arrest warrant, don't you think we'd have done it by now? They tried to catch him in Tora Bora and he slipped away. Hell, look how long it took to catch Saddam and that was a country crawling with coalition troops--and people that hated his fucking guts.

What if your only chance to get Osama is that an armed Predator is flying a patrol and positively identifies him out in the open? You've got maybe a 5 minute window to pop a cap in him or he gets away again. Do you let him go because you "don't want to make him into a martyr"?

^
You think people think he's a Muslim now? Imagine THAT State of the Union Address. "Hi guys. Today I had a chance to kill the man behind the 9/11 attacks, but I let him go. Now we have no idea where he is and may never get another chance to kill him. Hope! Change!"

Not only would he not get reelected, but they'd probably impeach him on the spot, tar and feather him and run him out of DC on a rail. There would also never be another Democratic President in the next half century.

Shit, letting Osama get away is such a big deal that Bubba went to great lengths to kill any hint that he might've done that--and he isn't even eligible to be President any more.

Obama never implied that the U.S. should let him go if they couldn't capture bin Laden alive.

In fact, he clearly said we may not be able to capture him alive.

Going back to Bock's post, it seems like ODS rearing its ugly head.

While he may be short on specifics, nothing Obama said was wrong.

I think everyone would agree, for instance, it would be ideal to not turn Osama into a martyr.

Even McCain and Defense Secretary Gates say they want to shut Gitmo down.

They, like Obama, haven't said AFAIK what they want to replace it with.

The ability of Osama to inspire his followers continues as long as he's alive. Once he's dead, yes, he's a Martyr, but that only holds meaning for a relative few, and his ability to inspire as a Martyr has a limited shelf life.

^I think you're underestimating the power of martyrs. A lot of them inspire people decades, centuries or in certain cases millenia after they are gone.

I also think that you're overestimating the power of a captured prisoner to inspire attacks.

That being said, it might be right that justice demands executing him, no matter the risk of his martyrdom inspiring other attacks, other terrorists to follow in his footsteps.

Read the article again. Obama was specifically asked what he'd do if Bin Laden was captured alive by a reporter. Obama even said he didn't think it was possible.

The death penalty/martyrdom argument is tricky but I don't see a thing wrong with an open trial. If it was good enough to try Saddam in Iraq why not Bin Laden in the United States?

Martyrs surviving to inspire for millenia usually have a little more going for them than an unfinished US senate term, if you know what I mean, Raoul.

I think your third paragraph there is correct. Justice demands OBL's execution. Coming out upfront, as Obama has done, saying we're not going to make him a martyr is denying justice. The Chief Executive of the U.S. should be very interested in justice.

Bollocks.

Nowhere did Obama say "we're not gonna kill him."

Obama just said it's not a good idea to make him a martyr. Execute him by lethal injection after a fair and open trial, after all the proper appeals, and he's far less likely to be a martyr.

It'd also be nice if we could release some Saddam-style photos of him in his prison cell, eating froot loops in his underpants. That's how you destroy a legacy.

Any death by our legal system would be a martyrdom to his followers. The rest of the world, I'm pretty sure, would be glad to be rid of him.

Other than that, there's not much to disagree with there.

True, but his dying in a hail of gunfire while cursing the infidels with his last breath is more likely to inspire the average citizen than his dying strapped to a gurney, crying and whimpering as the doctor sticks the needle in his arm.

Considering that with the recent Supreme Court decision the tourists currently staying at Club Gitmo have more rights than the Nuremberg Nazis that, IMO, would be one hell of an improvement.

Bush might not be up to par on many things but nothing he's done comes close to the abortion of a decision to criminally try those behind the '93 WTC bombing, essentially giving the rest of Al Qaeda a guide on how to avoid being tracked by American intelligence.

I'm doing neither. History's always shown that the value of martyrdom is overrated.

The odds are 100%.

Hello Dan. When you become an American citizen, you can start to lecture the rest of us on American politics.

If the US would join the International Criminal Court...

Why? So you all can start arresting us for calling Scientology a cult? Things like that?

You can keep your repressive laws.

Who's arresting who for calling scientology a cult?

This is more about trying Bin Laden in an appropriate context.

So you all can let him off with five years in prison? That seems to be the usual sentence for terrorists.

Google the scientology thing. It happened in the U.K. I think charges were finally dropped, but it's a clear indication of the curbs on free speech in the U.K. and the E.U. Can't have anyone offended, can we?

You know better than that.

Nothing to do with the ICC.

Speaks to the weak, European mindset that controls the ICC.

Nothing's any good unless it's controlled by the US, eh?