This is en example of why the MSM is so dangerous

Ok. That was the parenthesis. Did you see the rest of the argument? Do you want to deny that the US government has proven unable or unwilling, and seems to still be unable or unwilling, to leave the healthcare market alone to the extent that it could be called free?

Take your time answering, I'm going to bed for now...

I would not attempt to deny that for a second, but it doesn't change my position. And I wouldn't dump all of the blame on the wealthy political elites that run our government. They do whatever wins the votes, and the voters have gradually shifted towards a mentality of expecting the government to provide everything and solve their problems with money taken from the villainous "rich."

That's what I figured you meant, but I'd have expected that from Liet, not you. You cannot use those programs as a base case and use induction with this over arbitrary government programs without induction over all possible government-run programs, in which case you have to accept government interference in all aspects of your life, including "in the bedroom", allowing slavery, etc...a whole host of unpleasantries. No, you'll have to justify government-run medicine on its own merits. As per this digression, pareto superiority is not one of them.

Come on, Anna.

The government has been the single payer for seniors since the mid 60's through Medicare. The government also provides health insurance for the active military and our veterans. There has not been one instance of the government rationing care or deciding that a person is too old to provide care for. This argument is nothing more than alarmist bullshit and hyperbole.

The truth is that Americans pay way more than any other country per capita for healthcare and we rank far lower than 36 other countries when it comes to infant mortality rates, life expectancy so on and so on.

Both the American Medical Association and the American Hospital Association support Obama's plan to provide a public health insurance plan.

Just give Obama a chance and let this bill become law and you will see government ration care and you will see government deciding that some people are not worth providing care for.

It happens in EVERY country that has socialized health care and it will happen in America if this goes through.

The fact you're too drunk on Obama Kool-Aid is not an excuse for your ignorance on the matter.

Link?


Or were you just pulling that out of your ass?

Bullshit, at least where active duty military are concerned. They try and fuck soldiers all the time with tricks like downgrading diagnoses or claiming preexisting condition.

Go stand on a border crossing and count all the Canadians coming across the border into America for medical treatment because it's rationed in Canada or they can't get it in Canada.

There's your fucking link.

Oh and that lady who got smacked down by Barney Frank? La Rouche supporter. Or ever how the fuck it's spelled.

Of course you don't hear that part get reported.

Fair enough...but what's the difference? What does that change about the incident, or the question?

That's not "rationing," that's people with money choosing to pay for non-emergency services instead of waiting to have them performed for free.


And still, that would only be the case in America (people leaving the country for service) if any sort of private health care was outlawed, and I've haven't heard anything suggesting that's going to be the case.



Have anything that's not a paranoid delusion?

You can't seriosuly have asked that fucking question? Of course it changes things.

Obama and company are using nuts like that girl to smear the right.

If the truth was known and reported on they couldn't get away with that.

So you want to out this girl like the Dems outed Joe the Plumber?


Interesting.

If the right were denouncing nuttiness (I assume the Larouche tidbit is what gives you cover to label her "nuts") like this, it would be a lot harder to "smear" them with it, wouldn't you say?

Last time I recall the right denouncing nuttiness was 10 months ago with John McCain at a town hall.

Joe the Plumber was outed? You mean as a plumber? Ohhhhh...I guess you're one of those guys who thinks McCain twinkled his nose like a witch and had Obama's motorcade show up in Joe's front yard. Yeah Joe was a secret plant. The house he lived in? Owned by McCain.

The girl wasn't trying to insinuate she was a right wing lunatic. But the media conviently ignored the fact that she was a left wing lunatic who wnats a system that would be worse then what even Obama wants.

You don't think something like that makes a difference in how the public would view a demonstration or a person?

Oh I'm sorry I hsould have known better.

It's the rights job to do the medias job in situations like this. Yes those on the right should just push the people at CNN and MSNBC and the main networks off their chairs and do the actual news reporting for them.

The media's job is to prevent the right from being smeared for their own actions?

No the media's job is to report things accurately. If she's a left winger then say it. The media doesn't have to comment on it.

But when the media ignores who she is they allow the spin that it's right wingers out there raising hell and playing the Nazi card to take root and spread like a cancer.

You don't see something wrong with that?

So FreedomWorks, Americans For Prosperity, Conservative For Patients Rights, etc. ...these are left wing groups?

Free.

... and that never happens with private insurance.

The difference is that you can actually fight an insurance company.

How is it any easier to fight a private insurance company than it would be the government?

In most cases, the policies they set give them the last word.

I suppose there's regulations that one can try to use, but by the same token there would be government rules they have to abide by.

I dunno, Raoul. Why don't you ask the Air Force guy who went in for a routine operation about a month ago and wound up having both his legs amputated because the military doctor botched it and then took too long to get someone who knew what they were doing in. Turns out, because it was Government provided, the airman cannot sue for malpractice.

Quiet, people with jobs are talking.



And Volpone.

I agree your government is the fault of your people; it is, after all, theoretically democratic. Anyway, this kills the "US goverment too stupid for UHC" argument, given that it's too stupid to do anything else or even not do anything as well. If losing the argument doesn't change your position, one migth wonder why you brought it up.

You're making two assumptions here that I consider false. (Actually three, if I include thinking you're getting anywhere with the Liet teases.)

One, you're acting as if the structuring of property and the resulting structuring of income has no effect on the fairness of income-based access to healthcare; as if the structuring of corporations has no effect on the contracts by which insurance corporations offer private healthcare; and so on; in general, you're assuming that essential parts of the economic system have no influence on one another.

Two, and more specifically, you're acting as if the general principle outlined in the first paragraph somehow does not apply to healthcare. To show this, you'd have to demonstrate the existence of a proposal that does not involve any involuntary inclusion, even of the harmless kind. I don't believe you can.

Not paranoid delusion? Zombie?



Thanks. I needed that.

He's getting somewhere. He's showing that he has know understanding of the issues involved and that he's talking out of his ass.

Of course that's the same place he gets when he tries to pretend to be talking about substance as well. Libertopian delusions about worlds where no one ever has anything happen to them involuntarily are quite definitely of the ass.

Isn't that a military thing and not a government health thing?

I mean, if you're in the military you can't sue anyone else in the military for shit done on duty, instead you have go through all the proper channels.