This is en example of why the MSM is so dangerous

It's unfair in the same way a full UHC system is "unfair": it forces those with means to compensate for those without. A redistributive scheme.

Of course that's a pretty minor problem if there's a properly functioning free market in credit. Given that the loan is easily structured as de facto backed by the government and its promise to pay the hospital it should be at roughly the same interest rate as on short-term government debt, the lowest rate in the market. If your state has a monopoly or oligopoly on commercial lending and lacks proper usury laws that's another issue . . .

I'm not proposing that anyone do that. I'm suggesting the charities exist as a last resort.

The basis would be simple market trade between buyer and seller, not how we deal with people can't or won't pay for themselves.

Most people who get shafted are lazy, uninformed or simply stupid.

There already are a zillion programs to help poor people get the care they need. Not only that, you would be very hard put to find a doctor or hospital that would not sit down with you and work out some kind of long-term payment plan with you if you can't afford the bill.

My own personal physician has told me that we will figure something out if Zel ever gets laid off.

The problem is people believing that other people's work and service is an entitlement they shouldn't have to pay for.

I am with snoopdog...if you want affordable healthcare...hell, more affordable everything....what we need is government reform.

That, and the false pride that puts people off of sitting down with the doctor's office and working out a payment plan as you described. Dignity isn't an entitlement, either.

Well, that's a nice bit of catch-phrasey partisan propaganda handed down from long dead rich pricks that threw your class overboard over thirty years ago, and couldn't give a fuck about you and yours.

And yet, working class people think they're in that club if they put an "R", by their name.

Never was able to figure out how they sold that.

Damned impressive bit of marketing.
I'm forced to begrudgingly respect that.

It's really something how they pulled that off.

People in the ditch, looking down on other people in the ditch, and using that lens distortion to let the ditch-chuckers slit more throats.

Chilling how well it works.

Simply spine tingling.

Fascinating phenomenon to observe over the years.

Well, guess that'll help those concentration camp survivors sleep easier tonight.

That it's used as propaganda doesn't mean there's no merit to it. The best lies contain an element of truth. Sure, some people do get unfairly screwed. Some do suffer for no fault of their own. But that doesn't mean it's the case every time, or even the majority of the time, and it's just as dishonest to dismiss it outright on that basis.

Make your point.

Does to me.

*Grabs it off the screen with a sneer. Crumples it. Flings it at your feet*

*Storms off*

Ah, whaddya you know? You're nucking futs.

Why don't you shut the fuck up?

You have Mommy and Daddy to diaper your ass while you sit here spouting your hateful and self-righteous nonsense trying to pretend you have a single shred of credibility or experience to back up the mindless parroting you do day after day of soundbites you like.

I know what I am talking about because I fucking lived it. We scrounged and scratched to make a living and take care of ourselves. Two people living on less than $12,000 a year and I had to visit the hospital..I had to see specialists...and guess what I did. It took some work, a bit of research and some time to work out details but it happened and we didn't end up in bankruptcy court and I am here to tell you about it.

I am not looking down on anyone for their circumstances...I was that person in those circumstances...I am telling you, from experience, that these people could do more for themselves if they got off their ass and made the effort.

Just because you struggled and made it, doesn't mean those that don't make it are all weak and stupid.

I am no one special....anyone can do what I did to get what I needed and make the problem manageable.

You just don't know what your talking about...it's a soundbite to push an agenda that isn't needed except by people who refuse to lift a finger to help themselves.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

And from my perspective, I see the same thing coming from the other direction.

Class hatred.
Only the powerful have a rational vested interest in it.

...

You are so full of shit.

Class hatred? WTF?

Expecting people to have responsibility for themselves is not class hatred. It's fucking sense unless the person is really ill or mentally retarded.

For fuck's sake..you think I am an elitist in a fucking double-wide trailer? Really?

And your perspective? Oh, it couldn't be skewed by the fact that you are one of those people who won't do what it takes to be responsible for yourself. You sit on your ass subsisting on your parent's generosity and pass judgment on a world you know neither jack nor shit about....because believe me, the experience of life isn't the same as watching life pass by from the womb with a view.

So . . . who fucked up your life? Was it The Man? Why aren't you more successful? Is The Man keeping you down? Did he not spit on it before he stuck it in you? Yes, The Man likes it rough.

Or maybe it was a personal choice. Do you not feel the need to achieve meaningless things in The Man's world, or accumulate worthless things that only come from The Man? Yes, The Man is devious and will seduce you with his baubles of capitalist success. Damn him. Damn The Man and all his Manly minions.

Yeah, blindly assuming everyone in dire straits brought it on themselves is class hatred.

I don't think the partisan rhetoric version of it is that.

(Raises one eyebrow)
And you speak to me of "hateful and self-righteous nonsense"?

Simmer down.

I merely disagree with a rhetoric, and have a theory of where it came from, and it's not you or I.

Maybe it was the evil mustache twirling commies of the Mainstream Media Conspiracy.

I never fucking said that. Not once.

I said that people in that position can and should do more for themselves. They can get the care they need now if they get off their butt and do the things they need to do to get it.

Not once did I mention a damn thing about how people got into those circumstances.

But then again, it is probably pretty telling if they won't lift a finger for their health then maybe that is a clue to why they are in a fucked up position to begin with.

And you can fuck off with your "simmer down" garbage as well. Shove it right up your ass.

Did I misread this somehow?

We were talking about people being shafted by the healthcare industry...and people who think they have no options and no access to healthcare are lazy, uninformed or stupid.

At least that was what I was saying.

And with access to no survey, study, or even meeting any of the people in question, but just personal anecdote, you claimed MOST fit the latter.

That's quite a final verdict on so many people absent evidence.

That's what I've been objecting to.

How about you shut the fuck up about other peoples lives until you're actually taking care of yourself instead of leeching off others? Ever think about that?

Hypocrite.

Who does she leech off of?

Husband? Possibly her parents, possibly some kind of disability from the gubmint, I'm not quite clear on that.

Regardless, she's in no position to lecture people on having someone "to diaper your ass while you sit here spouting your hateful and self-righteous nonsense trying to pretend you have a single shred of credibility or experience to back up the mindless parroting you do day after day of soundbites you like."

She's not exactly a self-supporting globetrotter either.

I think he's going to try to say that she leeches off of her husband.

That would be patently false though.