Do you believe most churches have lost their way?

My roommate's been going through a bit of a crisis - she can't find a church that teaches what Jesus taught.
I had the same problem.

Every church I've been to, for as long as I can remember (though admittedly that's about 10 years' worth), has taught that the way to heaven is through Christ. That's fine. The problem is, they say "Well, if you feel really sorry and repent, Jesus will save you and you go to heaven! That's it!" Churches focus on converting people more than they do on Christ's teachings.
The end result is a bunch of selfish people going to church to show off their nice clothes, people who leave their service every week to go insult each other, or be generally sinful.



We're supposed to be learning about selflessness, love, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, sharing, and all the wonderful things that Jesus went on and on and on about. Y'know, the awesome stuff that makes you love Christians. But I don't see it happening.

That's my take on it. Anywho, have any of you had a similar experience?

Hypocrisy in itself wasn't the reason why I decided to leave Christianity, but it did get the ball rolling in that direction. People of all religions miss the fucking point, but it stands out in Christianity because it's the dominant religion of the world. I don't blame Christianity for the stupid people that claim to adhere to its teachings but don't, like a lot of people do. Christianity in itself had some good things to say, but I decided I couldn't trust its followers. I decided that I needed to learn about and know God on my own; the church wasn't going to help me. This then led to me leaving Christianity and walking my own path.

Anyway, my point: If more Christians focused on the true message about compassion and loving thy neighbor instead pushing their beliefs, giving only lip service to God and Jesus, and explaining to everyone else exactly why they're going to Hell, I might never have questioned the church or left.

If Jesus is the only true path to heaven, you fuckers ruined it for me. However, I forgive you. While I may not follow Jesus in name, he has some pretty good ideas.

Organized religion was a bad idea 2,000 years ago and it's still a bad idea today.

So true. The "gospel" of most churches is more about how to be saved ("believe in Jesus") than on what it means to be saved (delivered from the sinful selfishness that marks the human heart).

All too true, all too often.

That is indeed the crux of Christ's message. He came and lived and died and taught very clearly, all in order to change hearts. Not just to give people some kind of doctrine.

Yep. I grew up with the church (Evangelical churches, in my case). Church, and religion, and all the rest, never really gave me any meaningful answers. But when I discovered the teaching of the Bible, and in particular the teaching of Jesus (not just a few things here and there, but really what it all says), it blew me away. That's why, today, I don't defend religion, but I will state loudly and unashamedly to anyone who wants to know that Jesus changed my life.

That said, there are some churches that are much more honest about it all. And some of the people in just about any church who are. What helped me find a totally different spiritual reality was not "going to church" (even though the church I went to wasn't actually all that bad), but getting together with a few others (first one close friend, and then a few more later on) to really try to figure out what God has to say. Not what the church has to say.

As long as churches are popular, they will have people who are in them just for show, or merely out of habit. It's sad, but that's the way life is. But there are some true jewels out there, men and women who have a real desire to let Jesus direct their lives. Looking for them, and learning from and with them, is more useful in the long run than "finding the right church."

Hung out with a friend from high school this weekend, and he was telling me discipline horror stories from his catholic grammar school days.

1) The nun took his 2nd grade class en mass to the bathrooms once in the morning, and once before the end of the day, escorted and supervised. They were not allowed to go during the rest of the day at all. This became a problem for my friend as his diabetes surfaced that year.

2) The schoolmate who swiped a girl's uniform cap in class, joked around a bit, then gave it back. The nun escorted him to the convent where she then fully outfitted him in a girl's uniform, and made him wear it in class for the rest of the day. My friend ran into that schoolmate later in life, and not only did that person abandon Catholicism, he couldn't even say the word out loud.

3) The schoolmate who was punished by a nun by being made to stand on the sill of an open window, and told that if he moved she would push him out.

4) The mutual friend from the neighborhood who I hadn't seen since childhood, who turned out to be a career criminal (not sure if Catholic school was to blame, but it would follow the trend).

Granted these stories are 40 years old, but it makes me wonder how anyone can be surprised when someone abandons "The Church."

The worst thing that ever happened to the message of Jesus was when it got mixed up with political and military power. It made for very bad Christianity and very bad government.

though I believe Constantine was fundamentally a good man and well intentioned, he harmed Christianity immensely when he effectively tied it to Roman imperial power.

I recognize the strength and the value of religious ideas in human culture, but I feel I've outgrown Christianity, which I view (in its most innocent form) as a crutch for the poor and the downtrodden. As for the truthiness of the ideas that institutions peddle, we recall simply that there was a time when nobody believed in these ideas, and there will be a time after. Religion, like everything else, is subject to its context.

If Christianity could survived centuries of incredibly brutal persecution by the Roman Empire, then it could survive most anything.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you and your room mate are both "cut from the same cloth". Judging from what's observable about you, why would you need a church? Certainly not for what's being taught from the pulpit. You seem to be perceptive, intelligent and resourceful. If it's the message of Jesus in which you're interested, I can't imagine that you wouldn't get at least as much, if not more, from an independent study of the source materials (both the accepted canon, and the texts which have been officially deemed "heretical") and abundant, readily available scholarly exegeses.

That may not mitigate your desire for a "church". The hard part about "church" decisions in the 21st century is that there's so much bad press over them, in general. Church detractors are ready to lump all churches into one, bigoted, judgmental, politically meddling lump, while some churches themselves seem to be in a hurry to prove their detractors correct. Unfortunately, this conflict appears to taint all churches, and that's not fair either. While you probably won't ever find one that's a perfect fit, perhaps it's more important to find one which offers you a "community" of people who best match your values, your priorities in spiritual matters.

IMHO, the worst thing that ever happened to churches was the appointment of "leadership", a pastor, deacons, or whatever each denomination calls them. It's from this that all of the crap which is associated with religion has sprung.

The thing is, there are churches out there which can deliver what you want, perhaps not from the pulpit, but offer study groups on a weekly basis. Besides the support of a community of like-minded individuals, it's those group activities which might be just the ticket to that for which you, and your room mate, are searching.

I have several friends who are Unitarians who've tried to convince me to break from 3 decades of church absence (caused by the very things which you've cited) because they claim to offer an experience which is decidedly free of standard religious liabilities. I have to imagine that they're not the only ones trying to break from the model.

Statistics have shown that people have been less likely to attend church, or at the very least, claim an affiliation to one tradition or another. Churches which are determined to survive will either have to evolve, or succumb to the tar pit. All of the highly publicized shouting from the Pros and Cons may make it hard, or altogether kill your desire to find a church which suits you, but there are probably churches in convenient proximity to you who've recognized and embraced that need to evolve.

I suppose this begs the question, "Do you want to spend what little precious spare time remains after the rigors of your academic pursuits to find one?"

Yes I do. Churches today are nothing more than organizations run by lecherous, greedy, self righteous, two faced manipulators devoted to sucking as much money out of it's members as possible and prey on their fears. Pastors/deacons live in huge extravagant houses with multiple new cars, boats and other luxuries, they take vacations one of their average members would have to save up for for years to take, bought with the money of poor frightened members brainwashed into thinking their donations are going to some higher purpose.

The message of Jesus hasn't been taught in a very long time in this country not to mention the rest of the world. These are my personal experiences... I'm sure somewhere this isn't the case but I've never seen it. As a result I avoid churches like the plague they are.

^^^you describe some, but not all churches.

Regardless, I happen to agree with the OP.

Too many churches just hammer down the 'repent and you'll be saved' message without actually teaching the ways of Jesus.

There is no "way" for a church to lose. There is no "true" christianity, just as there is no "true" Scotsman. Religion is inherently arbitrary, and while we can talk about higher and lower social utility of various religious institutions and denominations, there's really not much sense to talking about religious institutions losing their "way." Their way is just what they do and it's never lost, however good or bad it may be.

I stopped being a christian, lets see, near 35 years ago, when my parents found out what was being taught in Sunday school to impressionable young kids. We were being taught that everyone except Baptists' were "bad people, doomed to go to Hell". This was not some low class, Southern Baptist church in the deep south, this was in a middle class neighborhood in the Maryland 'burbs'. My folks yanked my brother and myself out of that church, and none of us have stepped foot in a church except for weddings, funerals and such, since.

Because there will always be weak-minded idiots who will continue to believe this bullshit.

[/quote]
IMHO, the worst thing that ever happened to churches was the appointment of "leadership", a pastor, deacons, or whatever each denomination calls them. It's from this that all of the crap which is associated with religion has sprung.

[/quote]


Absolutely. My former church, just went through a split caused by one man. It turns out, he convinced 3000 people to follow him instead of Christ.... Not in the literal sense, but because what he is teaching stems from his own belief system, and theory. Not what Jesus taught us 2000 years ago. The ministers of the church do not need power, AT ALL. They are there merely as servants of the lay members. It is their duty to provide spiritual and moral guidance as directed by the Holy Scriptures. Nothing more.

No they just go whatever way they want, Ill go mine.

My mom pretty much had the same experience after she got pregnant with me and decided not to marry my spineless father. She's never lost her own personal faith, but because of that BS, my brother and I weren't raised to be mindless sheep to any particular church and let them run our lives.

I disagree strongly with that opinion.

Obviously neither view can be remotely proven.

I agree with the overall thrust of what you are saying. The thing that strikes me, from the ones I've seen, is that many churches fall prey to the weaknesses of human nature, and integrate them (unconsciously) into the belief system instead of recognizing them and working to grow past them.

We end up then with a bunch of people competing to be the "most good", most prayerful, most full of praise, most studied - whatever - in their peer group. It becomes a world of competition and pretense instead of a safe house.

Steve Brown says that the church is supposed to be a "hospital for hurting people" and too often, that is forgotten.

Yes, I do.

My experiences in churches have been unpleasant at best and enraging at worst.

I prefer reasoning together with like-minded faithful who are just looking for the truth as well. I learn far more from those discussions and even discussions with atheists than I ever did in a church atmosphere.

I do believe they have all lost their way. Its all about money, practicing gluttony, and more money. Oh and passing judgment on the actions of others while excluding the actions of themselves is also very big in churches. Jesus drank wine, that is a fact, but most of the church members do not drink and put down those who do, placing themselves above Jesus.

Churches are about communities, not messages. Most people these days are a particular denomination because that's what they were raised in, or it's a generic protestant, non-denominational church.

You do find the occasional serious Catholic, Baptist, etc. though.

My brother in law and his brood have become rabid Christians, and are well on their way to becoming full fledged Fundies.

So I bought this shirt, it came last week. First time I see a Jesus fish, it's on like Donkey Kong.

http://www.zazzle.com/t_rex_t_shirt_dark-235004904098942433

My wife bailed on the Catholic church after that saint decanonizing spree they had decades ago. It made her wonder. Why can someone be a saint one day and not the next? Is the whole thing arbitrary? There was more to it than that, but she says that was the last straw.

Her sister still goes to church, but her idealism toward Catholicism was crushed when the Church refused to let her divorce her first husband. She wondered why the Church wanted her to remain miserable. So she stopped taking the Church seriously, got a civil divorce, and remarried a nice Methodist boy.

You actually parted with some money for that t-shirt? Why? I mean it's almost worth a "heh" but wearing it is kinda lame. Kinda like wearing an "I'm with stupid" t-shirt.

This is what I'm talking about, most people don't actually understand their own faith.

They never decanonized any saints, they just said certain ones (such as my name sake) are largely legendary and there is little evidence for their genuine existence. Saint Christopher is still a saint.

As for your sister-in-law, the Church can't undo your contract with God, it's simply not within their power. It's why defrocked Priests can still technically celebrate the sacraments (but they're not supposed to). Annulments aren't a divorce: they're a finding that the marriage was invalid.