Yes, somewhat; but the five pillars are a good example of a generality that is interpreted in such different fashions -- in fact, various versions don't agree on naming the five pillars -- that I don't see proof of a common semantic core there, as opposed to a common symbol with differing meanings.
Right, so the contention here is that there is nothing common to all Muslims, and that presumably the label "Islam" is entirely arbitrary?
That isn't my contention; but I do think less and different things might be in the shared core of actual existing Islam than we might assume at first glance. Which is why I'm askingwhat kinds of propositions you'd consider to be a part of it.
I'm a bit surprised by Rick's stance here. It is almost as surprising as Dayton's position. @RickDeckard: the point is that if you see religion as made up, then it can't really be behind anything that isn't already a part of local culture. And the local cultures following the made-up thing are distinguishable from each other on different bases.
No, the contention is simply that you are an ignorant fool. Are you aware that Christianity and Judaism also have some elements common to Islam? If you answer yes, then your theory based on "some commonality" falls apart. If you answer no, then you are an ignorant fool.
Christianity and Judaism are both part of the "Abrahamic religion" category, and that is also something that blame can be attached to. Ultimately it all derives from a belief that ones own god is the one and true god, and that other faiths are heretical. There is a distinction of course between blaming Islamic doctrines and blaming other Muslims.
Seems like the (very selective) airstrikes are showing results: many refugees got off that murderously dry mountain. From other sources I heard the Peshmerga (Kurdish fighters) reconquered two towns. IS must be ended. They can't be allowed to regroup anywhere or they will be back. However, I'm afraid I can see nobody who has the will to do it. Me, I'd send in the Foreign Legion and just wait a bit. Problem solved. But France is heavily engaged in Africa so they probably won't.
Here's a video from an Autrian MEP who's helping out in the hot zone: (partly in German but it shows the situation in clearer pictures than any news service).
Strange thread. Cass wants to bomb Iraq and Dayton is taking a moderated view on Islam. Is this Mirror Universe Wordforge?
Welcome to Wordforge - where every response is a direct reflection of what the other person said, not necessarily based on personal ideology.
I don't want to 'bomb Iraq' for profit, shits and giggles. I want those monsters stopped and I don't really see another way.
Yeah. They've got to be stopped. They are now slaughtering kids and women. Google it and see the pics of crucified kids. Of people who were buried alive. They are attacking Christians and Jews. And of course those who don't follow their version of Islam. They have control of a damn that if they blow it up will totally wreck the country. Hopefully they aren't even that insane but you never know. If they aren't stopped and manage to get control of Iraq it's almost a guarantee that we will be invading for a third time in the future.
They probably are that insane. If nothing else, they might blow it up once the US has almost crushed them. Then drop the mic and walk off the stage.
The problem I see is this: 1) You can only effectively stop ISIS with A) A massive bombing campaign to decimate the most possible of these ISIS soldiers. B) A ground force to go in and kill the ISIS soldiers after they disperse and go to ground. Which they will do after facing a massive bombing campaign. C) The president for political reasons already has ruled out ground troops. 2) A truly massive bombing campaign would not involve occasional pairs of F/A-18s dropping a couple of 500 lb. bombs each. 3) A massive bombing campaign would involve something like 20 B-1s and 20 B-52s dropping about 40,000 lbs. of bombs once a day for 30 days each. Call it about 1,200 sorties. 4) Such a campaign would kill tens of thousands of the ISIS soldiers. As well as civilians who happened to be in the vicinity. 5) Within a week of such a campaign beginning, the Muslim world would be in an uproar about the U.S. "bombing Muslims again" while western liberals would be carping about the U.S. "bombing a nation into the stone age". Thus, both politically, and from a foreign affairs standpoint, the scale of military campaign to crush ISIS is probably simply not doable.
You expect conscripts to handle a situation like ISIS. German army makes are army look like Marines and navy seals.
But what if we tell them there is beer and cake if they perform well? Rich delicious German Chocolate cake? They would be there faster than you can say trupperschtauzenaghtzungpuktenzimmertrauzuchschtufer.
Right now the only thing we can do is support the Peshmerga. We should refuse to support Baghdad until Maliki is gone and more inclusive government is in place. Been drinking so a couple points. No particular order, and if in the morning I feel like deleting some, I might. FUCKING DUMBEST THING EVER FOR BREMER to dissolve the Saddam Army. 1/5th of the fucking country was dependent on those wages, they were the only police/stabilization force in the area and you fucking send them home angry and pissed off at you. GREAT FUCKING IDEA. Yeah, the higher ups were all Sunnis and were there b/c of their sect. SO THE FUCK WHAT?!?! That's how shit works in that part of the world. Between SWCS and deployment I've worked close up with Egyptians, Jordanians, Pakis, Algerians, Afghans, Iraqi Army (Shia), Peshmerga (Kurds) and Baquba Guardians (Sunni militia). The Peshmerga and BGs were the only career soldiers. The Shia were just conscripts that did their time and moved on. In one stroke of the pen the Bush admin not only erased the only professional military force in Iraq but they also make them our enemy (for the time... and now again). Is this a fucking repeat of history? Fucking 7 years ago I WAS THERE for the 'Sunni Awakening' where the Sunni tribes who had been allied with Al Qaeda we bought (brought?) over to our side. I fucking worked with those guys back in Baquba. At the time ISI (Islamic State of Iraq - this was before Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) had proclaimed Baquba the capital of the Caliphate and kicked the 1st Cav out (not that big of a deal, as @shootER can attest the Cav are a bunch of pussies) and said they would defend it to the death. Well 'the death' ended up being 'until Petraeus sends the fist of God (an entire Stryker Brigade [3-2 SBCT]) to retake it, then well set up of bobby traps and run like bitches'. And the fucking Sunni tribesman were good soldiers! Seriously. Beat the shit of the IA (Iraqi Army) which were nothing but a bunch of thugs and JAM (Jaesh al'Mahdi - Mahdi Army - Muqtada al-Sadr's militia which he integrated into the Shia controlled Army when he was Interior Minister). Seriously, IA was shit back then. Completely worthless. Wouldn't roll without us and half the time we'd be delayed hours just waiting for them to link up. They were so corrupt that US Army policy was that when we were checking houses to never allow an Iraqi soldier in a room without an American escort. I'm straight up fucking serious. Assholes would steal anything they could. For supposed 'invaders' the way I calmed people down during night raids (as the Haji Hugger of the platoon it was my job to talk to locals) was 'Them'allah, Jundi Amereekee' (Calm of God be on you, we're American soldiers) b/c telling people Americans were kicking in their door calmed them down, they were scared of the Iraqis kicking in their door. Fuck Maliki. He got his panties in a wad over us paying the Sunni militia directly (have you ever seen a pallet of Benjis? Oh, to just touch, to slip a few of them away, who will notice....). Someone told me each pallet was $60m, but fuck if I know. He wanted it all under his control. We thought he'd be a dick to the Sunni militias, not pay them on time and other shenanigans and we really REALLY like them fighting for us and not against us (they were actually well disciplined fighters, knew their shit, had a decent NCO corps, followed orders, not fucking cowards). However eventually Maliki wore us down and we decided to give him the money to pay the Sunnis. Guess that didn't work out. So fuck Maliki. He seriously brought this shit on himself. We fucking beat the Sunnis back and then paid them off to join us, and then he fucking squandered that. He is not suitable to be a leader of Iraq and we should not keep him in power. Until there is a new government, fuck them. Now the Peshmerga. That's another beast. Those guys are fucking legit. My old unit, 3-2 SBCT (which tour before mine was stationed up north) actually trained them up good. Now they were already decent fighters, but 10 months of American infantrymen living with you and training you turns a good fighter into a bad ass soldier. And the Kurds are (comparatively, obviously I'd take most NATO countries over them). When we took Baquba, I was actually the first squad, of the first platoon, of the first company, of the first battalion to run screaming across the fields and into the city (ever run with a SAW and 900 rounds of linked 5.56... FUN!). Leading up to that we had a Peshmerga unit attached to it. They saw the ISI guys over across taking pot shot at us, and wanted to go attack them [Peshmerga LOVE killing Arabs, fucking LOVE IT]. We're sitting here trying to explain 'Hey wait dudes, we're all gonna get in on this shit, don't worry' but they would have nothing. Which getting back to earlier statement is fucking hilarious b/c the IA (Iraqi Army - Shia) were a giant bag of vaginas and wouldn't enter an area unless we'ed controlled it for days... anyway).... So the Peshmerga unit commander, comes up to my platoon leader and basic TELLS US 'Hey, it's cool, you stay here, we're gonna go fight those guys across the way' which is seriously fucking ridiculous. We're the fucking cowboys. WE'RE the people that lead our NATO allies, then the British and French mercenaries [fucking shit they leverage THE SHIT out their ex colonies for troops, all British and French officers {on leave} leading them, and Britain and France paying their salaries, but basically every British and French ex-colony, their 'Special Forces' are being lead by, trained by {is that a bad thing, besides the US who has better training than the UK and France?}, and paid by their former colonial power], and then lastly, wayyyyyyy lastly comes the actual Iraqis and Afghans. But the Peshmerga, they were fucking telling US to sit back in the rear and that THEY would go fucking kill the bad guys. It took a little 'one hand as airplane, other hand mimicking bombs falling, engine and explosion sounds made with the mouth' explaining for them to understand that we were totally willing and anxious to go fuck those guys up, but that for once the Air Force was going to do it's fucking job and that it would be a really good idea for us to wait for the airstrikes and artillery barrage. And that's how I'll forever remember the Peshmerga. A fucking unit of indigenous telling us it was all good, we should wait, and they were going to go fight.
Seems like there will be some boots on the ground after all. The vow of not sending ground troops didn't hold for too long, did it.
Syria is an entirely different beast, or it least it became one the longer the war went on. Assad was always the kind of dictator the ME seems to need - a Saddam Light if you will. The whole thing started as a legitimate popular uprising but has since evolved into a conflict that has no side which should be supported. There is just bad and bad. Bad if the crazies win, bad if Assad wins and goes on a murdering spree to remove all who oppose him. Am I in favor of intervening? My heart says yes, slam them all into submission and let the UN take over for a few decades. My mind says no because the amount of bloodshed needed on all sides to end this is simply too high. All the civilian suffering aside, Syria is an internal power struggle. IS is not, it's an organisation devoted to religious cleansing wherever they go. To think they'll stop as long as they are winning is foolish.
I don't see why the Iraqi conflict is any less an internal power struggle than the Syrian one with ISIS being one of the internal actors in each case. You might have a point about there being better alternatives in Iraq, but I tend to think that the main reason there's intervention in Iraq and not elsewhere (once again) is because of that countries main export and the importance of supply being maintained.
Funny Anc brings up the pallet of money. When the war first started in 2003 a few American soldiers tried wetting their beaks a bit but the money was sequentially serial numbered. The idiots took bills from the middle instead of from the beginning or end.....whoopsie daisy! When it was inventoried by somebody else - that big gap was pretty much a red flag that something was amiss. Other folks throughout the war got caught mailing home insane amounts of cash - but millions got through anyway. People in my unit got caught mailing home stolen Army equipment but got off the hook by blackmailing the commander. It's always advantageous to have "dirt" on somebody!
the line is a fine one. my reasoning is that the syrian conflict hasn't spilled beyond its borders. IS (by their own description) doesn't know borders but only front lines. also, unspeakable atrocities. and that plan to conquer everything from there to switzerland's eastern border.as for oil, the US doesn't really need it any more. china and south korea have their paws on it. yet of course every nation, always, acts out of self interest.
