Obama Asks for AUMF Against ISIS

Well, that's okay then. But as it was written, it looked very Daytonesque...

Digging up some old posts of yours...

Not very fucking moral, and pretty indifferent to human suffering. We're now talking about a quarter of a million dead, five million refugees, and your view is that not only can we not do anything to stop it, we should actively involve ourselves to ensure that the carnage continues.

Dayamn.

Rick got you square that time, Gul.

His position could be, if not exactly "moral", the least evil of various possibilities, if there was some way to be sure that it was only the various extremist factions fighting with each other. If those who think it is their God-given duty to impose their rule on others by force and by terror would kill each other off, I wouldn't exactly sit around wringing my hands in sorrow, even though I know that still would be far from what one could wish for in an ideal world.

Unfortunately, it never works out that way; the civilian population always suffers immensely as well. The stories coming out of Syria and Iraq are absolutely appalling, as bad as any horrors this poor old world has ever seen. ISIS and the various groups aligned with them in other countries are a plague that needs to be removed, even though that, also, is merely less evil than letting them continue their abominable practices.

Nevertheless, even though they need to be removed, anyone thinking that any combination of forces that will eliminate them will somehow turn Syria or Iraq into peaceful countries is living under the same delusion as that which motivated George W. Bush. And we all know how that worked out.

Oh, good, I never have to listen to gul's pretense to a moral high horse on any topic ever again.

There are ways that we can assist that population through containment. The Kurds in Iraq were pretty safe from Sadam once we established the no fly zone, border refugee services, and supply convoys. All of that should be part of what we do. But if we go in and try to route out ISIS militarily, we will then also be in the position of inflicting harm on civilian populations ourselves, and likely generate more militants, as they operate much like a hydra -- kill one, and three replace him. I'm not sure what Rick would suggest, but if it is on either extreme of do nothing or invade and occupy, then his position is less moral than mine.

@RickDeckard, what do you recommend?

That, you can't know. I know it's "the Wordforge way" to denounce as immoral anyone who has a different worldview from your own, but in reality all you can say for sure is that if his position is on either of those extremes, you don't believe the result would be as moral as what you suggest.

And therein lies the whole conundrum of Syria, Iraq, and other such places: Since there are no "good" options, it is very subjective to suggest which of the various "bad" options are to be preferred, especially since it is notoriously difficult to predict what the long-range outcome will be from any course of action.

Cognitive dissonance illustrated.

I have no easy answers but anything that I recommend would be at least aimed at helping the civilian population, which doesn't appear to be the case with your ideas.

As to specifics, a lot more help for the Kurds would be nice, a crackdown on those funding ISIS, and a more serious effort at assisting peace negotiations.

I've already acknowledged it was clumsily stated.

My containment idea helps many civilian populations. At the moment, civilians throughout a large area are at risk of being swept up by ISIS contagion. I would secure those areas, penning ISIS in to a much smaller rump area. I would provide opportunities for civilians within that area to escape, but even if none did, millions others would be protected by the container. You seem to have no idea what it is that I've suggested.

I know. I was just piling on.

This just in! Shit's about to get real bitches! This link to a CNN article that says ISIS breached the perimeter of Al-Asad.
Now it's personal - I was there for a a few months back in 03! And yes that place is huuuuuuuge Some of their runways
are two miles long or some insane length. 25 square miles means a lot of perimeter! It's almost impossible to defend/protect
that much. They have a great control tower on the main runways. It's one of the tallest in Iraq. The elevator to the top
was FUBAR when I was there (war damage duh) so we had to climb a gazillion stairs all the time. Good times, good times.

Anywho I had no idea we had contractors there teaching Iraqi's aviation. Kind of a loophole to not having our military there -
we can just use contractors. WTF? We have 300 Marines there? I was told we have no more US troops in Iraq. Hmmm.......

Well this could be very interesting, very fast.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/13/middleeast/isis-iraq/index.html

I'm so tired of war.

Don't look for it to end in your lifetime, thanks to it being big business.

Even if it weren't big business, wars would still happen. It's in our DNA! Ducks have to quack, bats have to fly, humans have to kill.
That's one reason I don't buy into the idea that humans are different than animals, that we are god's special creations.
Nice theory, nice pretty thoughts and words conceived in our uniquely human imaginations,
and spoken through our uniquely human voice boxes. If aliens landed here today and observed earth, would humans seem that
much different than other members of the animal kingdom? Our weapons are mightier - but that's about it.

If big business was the only major cause of wars happening all the time, then human history wouldn't have been a history of constant wars long before big business was ever invented.

Big business just takes advantage of the situation, in the same way that politics, religion, water rights, lebensraum, and other such things are just excuses. The root of the matter is that people like to rule over other people. Unless you can fundamentally change human nature -- for all humans, not just some, because otherwise the unchanged will perpetuate the status quo -- there will always be wars.