What does *positive* masculinity look like?

Your posts are all pleas for validation.

So I'm, what, using reverse psychology? Right. You got me. Someone finally cracked the code.

Anyway, after all the argument and hair-pulling, it looks like we've all finally come to an agreement.

Positive masculinity is Elliot Page re-cast as Cara Dune walking onscreen and going "trans-itty, trans-itty, trans-itty, trans! ".

Then the whole cast breaking the fourth wall, and staring out at UA expectantly for his inevitable meltdown.

Bill Burr wouldn't let that happen!!
Bill Burrr wouldn't leeeet thaaat haapeee-heh-heh-heh-heeeen!!

A subset of everyone else being people whose views you consider to be wrong doesn't in any way invalidate the concept of receiving feedback from external sources.

I’m not sure this is valid. At least, not for everyone. My entire life I was told that I’m not a “good woman” because I refuse to cook and clean and be some asshole’s doormat. What little bit of self-esteem I have, I scraped and fought for on my own.

That may not have been the norm for all women my age, but it certainly was for my parents and extended family based on their upbringing.

And if you didn't have those cock-knockers to push against, would you have the Eye Of The Tiger?

I may not be explaining it in a way you (or anyone else) can understand. I didn’t “fight” in the sense that you’re thinking. I just didn’t walk the path that was laid out for me. I went my own way. I didn’t get the positive reinforcement from my family that is imperative for children to develop their own self esteem and self worth. So, by my own actions, my own successes and failures, was I able to gain any self-esteem.

The uh..Page entity has done some graphic nude scenes, and I cannot muster opposition to more of what I've seen...

And that would be compelling if external validation were an all-or-nothing proposition, which it obviously is not.

This is so true of UA. It clearly is not good enough for him to have an opinion. He clearly seeks validation of it and demands all others copnform to his opinion or else they are stupid libtards who are attacking him. The reality is no one would be arguing with him if he was simply having opinions. It is the fact he demands others comply or else he views himself as being small and a victim.

This is one of the purest traits of toxic masculinity. Men who are confident in themselves and are not aggressively fighting everyone who does not agree with their false opinions are liberal pussies. He claims he does not need his opinions validated, yet he seeks only places that validate his opinion like fox news and the republicans.

There are differing ways the same traits are toxic for the different genders. For instance body dysphoria and modification for the purpose of fitting the societal construct of masculine or feminine. We have men who go on steroids and overdo their musculature for the purposes of being more manly by being large and having freakishly large muscles meaning tougher and more manly. Then you go to things like Penis enlargement and Testosterone therapy.

Women have different areas and ways they modify their bodies, but generally keep to fitting a social construct for their design. They have breast and facial augmentation. The removal of hair is something some male bodybuilders do, but it is considered a feminine trait so they do not talk about it like women talk about waxing, eyebrow shaping, and other ways they spend lots of time and money on modifying how their hair grows. They will chemically burn their facial skin off to rid themselves of wrinkles and make their faces look younger after healing. They will remove scars while men might show off their scars.

The ways we view toxic body modification tend to differ between men and women. There is a much quicker line towards a woman being shamed for spending too much on her body modification, but she is also expected to do it. This leads to all sorts of things society sees as disorders so they can be what society tells them. Meanwhile if a man gets addictive towards physical exercise, or starts doing all sorts of things to make his penis bigger we seem to put that under the excuse of being healthy. Why are penis pills and penis pumps a medical device, and diet and skin care for women something they pay for even though it is pretty much medicine when you consider it's effects on the body?

Exactly, whereas:

Seems to be a blanket statement.

And yet the statement contains parameters belying any "blanket" nature. "Male" + the presumption of "toxicity" from an external source for the explicit function of dependence narrow the selection criteria considerably.

Hey, thanks for your patience. I wanted to wait until I was in front of a computer to respond.

So, Wikipedia gives this in the introduction to the toxic masculinity page, I've bolded the stuff I feel is relevant:

It's toxic behaviours that are specifically linked to cultural expectations of men. Women can certainly exhibit these behaviours at well, but from what I've seen it's usually women doing it because they think it's required to fit into a male dominated profession or group. (Of course, toxic femininity is it's own thing and built around stereotypically feminine behaviours.)

Wikipedia acknoeledges that the definition of masculinity changes depending on the culture and the era, but it lists some traits commonly found in Western culture, "strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness."

Mr. Rogers managed to be become a leader in his chosen field without resorting to violence or bullying or aggression. The legend goes that he hated television the first time he saw it, but that he believed there had to be a way to use it "to nurture those who would watch and listen." He created a program like nothing else on television and left a stable job to do it, which took courage and assertiveness. He used his platform to oppose racism and consumerism, which took courage and independence. That's why he's a positive male role model.

My first thank you is for your mention of Mr. Rogers. There was someone grating at the back of my mind and if he was mentioned before I had blinders on for it. He had such a good peaceful way about him that was a positive view a man could aspire to be.

Also, thank you for a decent definition of what positive masculinity is. This whole argument over what is masculinity is nice, but I think most of us have a grasp over what we view as toxic and pleasant masculinity. The argument over what is masculinity seems to be a massive tangent that should have it's own special discussion. The long form discussion of it is appreciated by me of all people. It does seem to be something that people tend to deflect away from by focussing on what is feminine and masculine.

I do not know if that deflection comes more from a more modern view of MvF where our old preconceived notions themselves have become obviously toxic. Fort instance, the ability of a dad to play princess with his daughter would be a positive masculine confidence that would fall under positive masculinity. I have seen instances of cis-men who have done these things and shown that wearing make up or female clothing is not shameful and does not take away from your position as a father or male in society.

I guess the subject is bigger than just the topic. In me my dysphoria has taken a different shape as I have become more self defined as female. In other words I need less societal reflection of femininity to feel more myself, and need more alignment with the feelings of being female and my feelings of self which were pushed away from female by societal learning. The way I look at it has massively changed. I used to look at it as portraying myself in my ideal of femininity in public and having people call me she. Now it is more like I have given the girl inside of me control and she is going to do what she wants even if other people do not think she is girly enough to fit in. I think part of that shift coincides with changes in america on how women are perceived, and how they perceive themselves. I also wonder if those changes in me would have come around outside of a more female friendly society. I am not saying america is great for women, but that women in america are blossoming into something new, and that probably has influenced my view of being feminine.

Yup, straight cis men embracing traditionally feminine stuff is definitely positive masculinity. Mainly because it takes courage and independence and leadership to break out of those old traditions, but also because it's striking a blow against misogyny.

Wait, so if external sources aren't anyone who isn't that individual, does that mean that some other people are internal sources?

I literally don't understand what you're trying to say here.

You stated thatbpositive masculinity would be not seeking external validation.

That's not about you personally, it's a broader statement and one I disagree with.

I do agree not all such validation is equal but that's a different question. You were claiming none of it matters and that simply isn't true.

We learn from an early age to behave according to the rewards and punishments we are given by others and that continues into later life.

A child makes a tower out of bricks and gets a smile of its parents. That happens often enough and the child soon learns that being creative is approved of by others.

Equally if that child hits another they will be scolded and soon enough (should) stop hitting out.

That is the most basic form of social conditioning and it doesn't stop at puberty.

UA speaks in mottos and memes. They do not always hold up under scrutiny.

I dunno if that’s the case. I mean, I can see why people hold that viewpoint, but it seems to me it just reinforces gender stereotypes.

I feel things are more misogynistic now than 10 years ago. 10 years ago it really felt that there was a bit of freedom and increase of opportunity and you could just be without being questioned.
Now things are very identity focussed; and in order to belong to an identity it has to be defined first, hence reinforcing stereotypes. I was in a male dominated industry for 15 years, and in the last few years it definitely shifted to who - or what identity boxes I ticked - being considered more than what I was doing, or my achievements.

ETA: That’s not to pretend I didn’t encounter crap at work because of my sex when I started, but focus on my sex was incidental to my role rather than feeling like the whole purpose of it.

It may be that you are behind the wall of right wing sexism? Your location plays a huge roll in how you are treated as a woman. I cannot speak for the areas of the UK, but there is sexism everywhere because we started that way. There will be a "conservative" backlash to change in every society. Companies and governments are going to use quotas and inclusivity to try and make a diverse presentation. However, those methods are clumsy and do not always do what is intended. It is like trying to fight a fire with a water sprinkler.

Yes, I agree. This is where I think it’s hard to square the circle. The good intention of inclusivity is often carried out in superficial ways, which has constricted roles to what a person’s presentation will allow a company check in the diversity boxes. Good for the profile of the company, maybe not so good for the individual in terms of meritocracy.

I used to get sent to accompany agricultural and industrial surveys which was big, varied and interesting work. Then I was basically sidestepped into commercial surveys as it looks good to send a woman out to another commercial business, up on school roofs and tapping storefront plaster, even though my agri manager fought to keep me on agri work.

There’s a flip side to identity politics, and that’s tokenism based on a narrow perception and definition of that identity.

ETA: Back on topic - positive masculinity trait imho is protectiveness. Ngl been shielded from a lot of strife thanks to men.

Oh yeah, one thing I found fascinating while looking Fred Rogers... I found an interview he did with Johnny Carson, where he talked about his show making an effort to address actual fears that preschoolers have that adults tend to forget about. He got his hair cut on film, because he learned some preschoolers are terrified the barber is going to cut more than just their hair. He sang a song about how you can never go down the drain, because he learned some preschoolers are terrified they're going to go down the bathtub drain when the plug is pulled.

But what struck me is when he said he wrote the song Everybody's Fancy because he learned some preschoolers are terrified they're going to be forced to change genders when the grow up, and he wanted to reassure kids that they wouldn't be forced to become anything they're not.

I wonder, is that mostly forgotten fear the source of a lot of transphobia that's out there today? Are transphobic grownups still haunted by childhood fears that they might be forced into becoming something they're not? J.K. Rowling has been very open about how her father wanted a son instead of a daughter, and how she thinks he would have forced her to transition if it'd been an option at the time.

I also notice that the bulk of transphobia is against MTF trans people, which definitely has it's roots in misogyny. Nobody worries about tomboys, no one complains if a woman wants to act like a man or live like a man. But a man acting like a woman, or trying to look like one? It rubs certain people the wrong way.

Quite a few do. Especially when it comes to asking to be PAID like a man.

How do women act?

My default answer:

My "just in case you're sincere" answer: Wikipedia tells me "traits such as nurturance, sensitivity, sweetness, supportiveness, gentleness, warmth, passivity, cooperativeness, expressiveness, modesty, humility, empathy, affection, tenderness, and being emotional, kind, helpful, devoted, and understanding have been cited as stereotypically feminine." Just upthread it was suggested Mr Rogers was feminine because of his gentle and nurturing qualities.

No anthropologist would ever apply the greek letter pack mentality to humans. That is 100% the invention of insecure douchebags who think louder=more impressive.

Basically who you are.

It does not act self aware.