What does *positive* masculinity look like?

Thank you for that.

Well, in terms of your comments about gender identity, that’s kind of my point in a nutshell - the word “stereotypically”.

I think a lot of people mean well in addressing inequality, but by boxing in characteristics of gender it just maintains the status quo and forces a narrower path of behaviour, role and appearance.

On one hand gender stereotypes are harmful, and yet in the other they’re strived for.

I think that’s where a lot of the MtF transphobia you mention comes from, at least from what I’ve seen. It pits two groups of people directly against each other that really just want to be left the fuck alone to get on with life unobstructed.

I don’t know if @Tererun would agree, but from discussions we’ve had before I think that’s the conclusion we reached.

I assume one of the groups you're talking about is transwomen. What's the other, and how is the existence of transwomen "obstructing" them?

Yes, transwomen and the other cis women. Sorry, I thought it was clear what I was talking about.

I didn’t say TW were obstructing women. I said the two groups were pitted against each other because on one hand gender stereotypes were harmful (cis women) and the other gender stereotypes were strived for (because gender dysphoria) and really all that both groups want is to be left alone to live life unobstructed.

Be grateful if that is truly the case in your country.

I think (hopefully) well-intentioned interventions from interest groups actually-probably-almost-certainly stoke the fires of resentment.
ETA before asked - interest groups meaning fems & TRAs

It is true that when a trans person goes towards the gender they identify with they take on the styles as they see them. I wear a dress because women wear dresses. I have long hair because that is seen as feminine. I paint my nails because I want to be more feminine. But those things do not transform me into a woman.

You, by your own admission and judgement, have no place in this conversation. Yet you come here and insert yourself, like the dangly probiscus you are.

Traits such as nurturance, sensitivity, sweetness, supportiveness, gentleness, warmth, passivity, cooperativeness, expressiveness, modesty, humility, empathy, affection, tenderness, and being emotional, kind, helpful, devoted, and understanding are harmful?

A bunch of those are also elements of effective leadership, an allegedly "male" trait.

No. I said gender stereotypes were harmful to women, not the traits listed in the article you quoted.

And then I went on to say

Do you not think gender stereotypes have an negative impact on women? Not really understanding why you’re trying to waggle what I’ve said into something else tbh. Perhaps you have a preconceived notion.

https://www.iop.org/sites/default/files/2019-07/IGB-gender-stereotypes.pdf < top result in Googling “do gender stereotypes have a negative impact on women?”. For me anyway, there’s pages and pages of the same.

Okay, and you think trans women are striving to embrace the harmful stereotypes while cis women aren't?

I think TW are presenting as stereotypical women to “pass” and try and address their dysphoria. Not necessarily because they sign up to stereotyping in the first place.

ETA: sorry I misread your post.

I don’t think it matters whether cis women embrace it or not tbh because they’re not in control of how stereotyping affects “women” in society. Some fall into role, some don’t.

ETA ETA: Sorry, you also missed my question to you: do you not think gender stereotypes have a negative impact on women?

What, by wearing dresses instead of pants? By wearing makeup and growing out their hair? Why is that harmful or negative?

Like I already said upthread, nobody bats an eye when women wear pants or cuts their hair short. Nobody says that's toxic or harmful. Isn't that misogyny in action?

No. Misogyny is women being dominated by men and treated inequitably as a result. Clearly it was believed and evidenced to be a real thing in order to be part of various discrimination legislation around the world.

Many acts of discrimination are based in preconceived ideas about how someone looks, behaves and is able to be purposed, aka stereotyping.

ETA: I’ll try again. Do you not think gender stereotypes have a negative impact on women?

Over the years I've been at my current job, I've had a couple female coworkers that were stunningly beautiful. Not only did they have excellent bodies and beautiful faces, but they showed up every day with hair and makeup and clothes that accentuated their natural good looks. And they were good people too, funny and personable and professional and cooperative. A large percentage of our female coworkers fucking hated both of them. For absolutely no good reason, unless you count jealousy and insecurity.

Did they deserve that, just for standing out? For refusing to tone themselves down to blend in?

All stereotypes have the potential to negatively impact their subjects. Even "positive" stereotypes like "asians are good at math" can have a negative impact.

But you think transphobia is the result of trans women "striving" for "negative feminine stereotypes?" I still don't get that. Which stereotypes do you think they're embracing to pass?

no of course not? I’m not even sure what your point is here.

I think transphobia from some women (can’t speak for men as I think their motivation is different) is based on a fear that gender stereotypes are being perpetuated more than ever and unfortunately because of provocative babble from both sets of activists, TW are a target for this as they are seen as a threat (and to add for balance I’ve seen some really disgusting things said about cis women in anger too which certainly doesn’t help matters).

I didn’t say “negative” btw. I said stereotyping full stop. I said in order to address their dysphoria and pass/present as a women, TW tend to do in a stereotypical way, which@Tererun backed up:

I mean, we can continue to dance like this or you can just go, “haha! See you’re a TERF!”, which is what I feel you’ve been itching to do from the outset, and be done with it.

Sure, and the civil war was about tariffs.

Perhaps you’d like to correct me how the bigotry evolved from a void, then?

From what I can see there are four main drivers:

1. That irrational childhood fear of being forced to change grows into something toxic. They see someone that did change, and fear their own identity is under attack.

2. Misandry so overpowering that the misandrists see absolutely everything as a predatory cis male scheme, even if it's not. This can be both men and women, you'll hear awful men say "if I'd been allowed to identify as a girl back in high school I'd totally have used it to spy on underage girls in the locker rooms" like they're making a statement about trans women and not just admitting something unsettling about themselves.

3. Intelligent people that don't actually give a shit about trans people one way or another, but see them as a perfect wedge issue to gain votes and donations.

4. Ignorant people that sincerely don't understand transgenderism and got their information from one of the first three.

I’ve not heard of that until you mentioned it earlier. I don’t know enough about it to discount it, but tbh it’s not something that strikes me as particularly plausible at first glance. Could be wrong tho.

Yes, I guess this could be a problem for some. I’ve heard some really crappy opinions about men and their intentions. I also think some have had experiences that explain why they are fearful and that requires tact and empathy.

100% agree on this.

There’s a lot of ignorance about women’s issues too. Particularly in relation to minority ethnic and cultural groups. It’s not just middle class, white Karens that are pitted against TW. I’m sure players with no real stake get a kick out of being inflammatory and setting the two groups against each other.

I still don’t think any of your points negates what I’m saying though. Over here, Scotland is blowing up over gender stereotyping of women at the minute. I don’t know the ins and outs, because to be honest it is draining to read, but a woman won a court case after she expressed gender critical views and was deemed to be discriminated against for those beliefs and there are protests over the GRA being proposed by Sturgeon (Scotland only).

What is being said by the womenwontwheest activists is pretty much what I said above. Fed up of gender stereotyping, fed up of being dictated to and told to shut up about their concerns over gender politics (and the grossest things I’ve seen said to them on Twitter are not by TW, but by liberal men who can’t smell their own misogyny).

You either listen to what their beef is about to find out what their beef is about, or you think you know better. I learnt more from talking to @Tererun (once we found common ground ) & @Nova than I did reading some snippy potshots from self proclaimed experts on Twitter who have no lived experience of either party.

I'm confident that the men who say this simply think they're making a funny joke -- in fact, there's probably a 100% overlap with the men who respond to every story about a female teacher committing statutory rape against a 14-year-old boy with "where were the teachers like her when I was in school, hurr hurr hurr" -- and would not, in fact, have done it.

Don't get me wrong, I know teenage boys are horny as fuck, and if you never had a fantasy in high school about being invisible so you could watch the girls you liked in the shower ... well, then the teenage version of you was a far better man than the teenage version of me.

But the same teenage boys who want to see naked girls, also want straight girls to want to date them, and that's not compatible with living their lives as female.

Fred Rogers believed it was a common enough fear to sing a song about it for decades, and I trust his judgement over anyone that posts here. And again, Rowling has been very open about her childhood trauma when she talks about her transphobic views. Even she sees the connection.

That tact and empathy needs to go both ways, though. Just like how getting mugged by a black guy doesn't entitle a white person to be racist forever, getting assaulted or abused by a man doesn't justify a lifetime of misandry.

Agreed, but one doesn't justify the other.

I had a very nice coworker from the Middle East once tell me "I don't believe in that" when the subject of trans people came up. I responded with exactly as much cultural sensitivity as was deserved.

"Oh, like you don't think they exist? They're mythical creatures, like the loch ness monster or el chupacabra? Should I try to take a blurry picture of one for you? "

Yeah, I looked it up. Their beef reeks of insecurity, misdirected anger, and petty bullying. Nothing they're complaining about justifies transphobia. It's like a wife getting punched by her abusive husband and choosing to beat the kids instead of grabbing a meat cleaver and going after her real enemy.

I’ve seen some of them say (and I’m paraphrasing here) that when they see trans women all they see is more mediocre men coming to trample on their rights and take away any gains in society they’ve been able to build

without getting too deep in all the garbage fire bullshit going on in the UK right now regarding trans/GC/media/political bullshit that is near impossible for an outsider to navigate without making it a full time occupation, one thing that comes to my attention over and over is that every big GC position, at it's dark root, undermines a core tenet of classic feminism. You can really see the influence of right wing bad actors who wish to use them to their moralist ends on their thought processes.

Right wing arguments, almost be design, do not HAVE to make sense - their purpose is to go right down to lizard-brain fear and anger, find a button and slap the fuck out of that bitch, reasoning and logic need not apply.

Likewise, the more impassioned the GC is, the more her (usually) argument becomes void of logic and reason and targets hind-brain fear and anger.

Superman, specifically All-Star Superman.

Hey supes, get off the kid's back and go rescue the busload of nuns falling off a bridge. This is why I hate these simplistic anti-suicide messages. We do not know this kid's story. Maybe this kid is being raped repeatedly by their father. Supes don't know that. He did not even ask if maybe tomorrow the kid is going to be selling themselves on the street because they have no place to stay and the world sucks. What the fuck is he doing about correcting a world full of shit? Little to nothing. Even in his world he does not force lexcorp to be good guys and help the world full of poor people who are suffering because of obvious corporate greed.

Bruce wayne is the richest man in the world from what I can see, and what does he do with it? He lives a life of decadence while the city is scum ridden and in need of massive social programs he could fund more of. On the side he cosplays as a crime fighting bat with enough technology to feed, shelter, and cloth the homeless which he uses to go after other evil cosplayers. Bruce wayne is part of the problem of greed and extravagance of the one percent of gotham. How many people died in his one pursuit of the joker in The Dark Knight? We do not see them, but you know some people were wiped out in traffic or homeless people just sleeping. It was not just the joker either, batman just blew up cars in his way and shot batbike projectiles randomly in the city. That would be fucking depressing realizing the force of good in your city is one of the main parts of corporate greed, and just kills regular old people more violently than any police officer in a dangerous pursuit.

Maybe if you actually wanted to help depressed people who feel like they live in a hopeless world they just want to escape from by leaving you could use your superpowers to actually do something more boring like actually making the world a better place by removing the large number of lower level criminals and corporate shitbags who are the overwhelming problems in your universe.

Wow.

I was never much on the "huggy" version of positive masculinity. Hugs are about as great for helping the depressed as a stupid meme. If getting a hug is going to stop your suicide, you were using suicide as an emotional manipulation to begin with. You are doing emotional blackmail by holding yourself hostage. I have met enough people like that, and if my hug is going to save you then here is the shotgun, make sure to get it all the way under your chin, or don't.

Do not get me wrong, a hug can be a good way to show emotional attachment and caring, and it is probably better than being emotionally distant which is a negative masculine trait. Supes is not my dad or a male in my family or friends list. The person standing on top of a building because they are lonely needs a close family or friend and superman has a different function. My family and friends are not superheroes and if they are the problem a hug from superman is not going to help. If the horrors of the world is the problem my family and friends cannot really change that, but an all powerful god is wasting valuable time where people are actually dying by hugging me. So go away and rescue the bussload of nuns so I can be happy reading the news tomorrow instead of realizing if I die then I won't have to read about dead nuns and realize they died because I was taking time from the one guy who could of saved them for a meaningless hug moment.

Not a positive moment of masculinity.

I should totally write hallmark cards.

I still find I agree with myself.