some grapes of wrath shit, right here...

Tons of work in the restaurant business. Everyone hated the managers who said things like that. People dreamed of shoving their face in the fryers and dumping them in the dumpster out back, and I'm being polite when I put it that way.

Yes, something like the old Civilian Conservation Corps would be an ideal solution. Get folks building/repairing infrastructure, cleaning up trash, working national parks, stuff like that. Probably include tutoring disadvantaged kids in math and whatnot, too. It's essentially a civilian version of military service - do four years of this, get your college paid for or existing debt wiped out. That kind of thing.

It was interesting to learn about some of the things from that period that are still around today. The (unverified) anecdote I heard was that most of the palm trees in LA were planted as part of those programs.

It's funny how when it's someone related to you, you say "she's been paying through it through Medicaid."

I'm pretty sure that if it were anybody else, you'd go "they aren't paying for it, us taxpayers are, blah blah blah."

Ah, but if we housed them, then some help might go to somebody who doesn't "deserve" it, and then Republican* men's peepees wouldn't get hard for, like, a week.

(And yes, as @We Are Borg mentioned, homelessness is way the fuck more complicated than lack of housing, and is inextricably bound up with mental illness, substance abuse, and a host of other issues. But $31,000 per year per person would pay a fuckton of social workers. It would even pay them a decent wage, something social workers are rarely accorded.)




*and yes, "Republican" in this case includes people who pretend to be "libertarians."

It's tricky. There's plenty of homeless people that don't want to be homeless, but there's also plenty of homeless people that are homeless because they'd rather be homeless than follow societies rules. Even in Canada, there's lots of people that end up freezing to death or getting things amputated from frostbite because they'd rather spend the night outside in -40 weather than accept the restrictions that come with staying in a homeless shelter. (To that end I honestly respect them more than I do the posturing online libertarians, but still) Short of literally imprisoning them, you can't put people in homes if they don't want to be there.

You’re absolutely right, the taxpayers are paying for it. She hasn’t worked a day in her life and is 27.

This.

part of the trauma... I've seen them get into housing, but still stay outside because it feels safer somehow.

The actually did it in Salt Lake City
and it worked

and being a good Republican state, they killed the program because, I suppose, they didn't "deserve" it or something.

Lol that the trust fund kid stumbles into this thread with a "let them eat cake" mentality.

I mean, you don't work for a living. As a trust fund kid, you basically make sandwiches as a hobby.

Not only that, but there's a far bigger population of "working homeless" than one thinks, ie the people who have jobs just above minimum wage but for cannot afford secure housing. They have cars and can afford a half-way decent hotel at times to take a bath in but thanks to insane rental prices, cannot afford housing.

Truth be told, the only reason I'm a millennial without roommates is because of my VA disability taking the bulk of that, a d I had to live in a roach motel for four of the last five years to do it. It was far preferable to moving back home with my stepdick's inability to budget money worth a damn but I wish I could afford to save any of it to use towards a home using the VA loan I worked for.

i notice that all the things that he and Lanz suggest the unemployed/unhoused could do in return for three hots and a cot (no mention of wages, so...) tend to be unionized city employee jobs.

also that it's by and large menial labour that people may or may not have the aptitude or capacity to perform.

building/repairing infrastructure:
mostly highly skilled labour (there's a reason crane operators make north of $150K)
unionized work force
private/public partnership pork

cleaning trash:
isn't that minimum security prison labour usually? or else handled by state transport depts?

working national parks:
okay, besides this frequently requiring a couple years of post secondary, you're talking about 1000s of people who've never been out of the neighbourhood, let alone camping, and you wanna dump them into the wild with minimal supervision? ALso, there're already some pretty huge tree planting programs. While good and necessary, the physical demands are quite high (and rarely a conducive atmosphere for those in addiction recovery)


tutoring other disadvantaged/diversionary services:
Well now you're just getting into what grossly underfunded places like my employer already are doing. We already do shit like try to get them into "permanent" shelters/transitional housing, provide laundry and shower services, access to GED programs, employment connections and preparation, peer services (where we train'em to do outreach), supervised consumption space, access to a nurse and a doctor... you get the idea. It's not like you can send them into schools given how many might have minor criminal records without changing the background check standards.





We're also not touching on necessary life supports that folks may never have been taught for whatever reasons. The results of extended homelessness or incarceration are often compared to combat related PTSD for a reason, with the greatest difference being that it's frequently experienced at a much younger age and on top of other traumas inflicted. We had a regular who passed last year. Besides growing up in poverty (rez) he'd been through some pretty unimaginable abuse as a child including his father throwing him into a fire... big surprise, he had a few addictions and countless fears.

https://twitter.com/gavinnewsom/status/1636475227034234880?s=46&t=iYW3foyqIA6Tn8VWwn3nwQ

OMG, but who will pay for FF and UA's state if California spends all their revenue on their homeless rather than opiods for farmers in welfare queen white supremacist states? It is really not fair that money is not going to MS, AL, AK, MI, the vaginas, the carolinas, OK, NB, AZ, WS, and every other state of white trash useless fuckbags who vote for trump.

So yeah. We know for a fact (thanks Salt Lake City) it is actually cheaper to house folks than to criminalize them.

But it is unfortunately not that simple as just saying ‘Okay, we are gonna house people instead of throwing them in prison.’

First off a significant bloc of voters don’t want poor people near them. Especially the kind of voters that vote every election, donate, and go to public meetings (aka old white people). However taking unhoused folks out to the middle of no where isn’t a solution as there aren’t the jobs and services out there needed to transition them out of homelessness. So there is the political issue of building more housing. Same for building rehab centers and supportive housing for those with mental illnesses.

Then there are funding issues.

So there isn’t just one ‘criminalizing homelessness’ budget that can be raided and the funds diverted to rehousing and rehabilitating. A large chunk of it is police budget (good luck getting that money), emergency services, hospital services (people living outside get sicker than folks living inside) it is social services, etc. etc. etc.

Currently the Feds pay you more for prison beds than hospital beds, more for cops than social workers. Etc, etc. That will have to change.

But in addition to that, initially there will need to be a MASSIVE influx of transition funding. Because for a while you’re going to have to be paying the cop and the social worker, you’re gonna have to keep running your prisons while you build hospitals and housing. And once you get the psych wards open it isn’t like your prison is just gonna empty out. It will take a while to draw down.

Yeah, so unfair to resist an increase in theft, vandalism and litter in your neighborhood. You should just take that one for the team.

When it is not your neighborhood, why the fuck should you give a fuck about it? If you somehow gave them a sense of belonging to the community and attachment to it then you might see a decrease in disrespect for the community.

Again it comes down to the idea you have to give respect to get it. If UA was kicked out of his home and forced onto the streets the least he would do is steal and vandalize from the people in his vicinity.

what increase in those things?

show your proof!!

hell, I can show you a statistical rise in crime around here that coincides with gentrification (mixed use neighbourhood, so we have a local night life full of suburbanites). The folks that were camped in the park, not so much a part of the problem... to the contrary, their presence acts as a diversion.

seriously... do you know ANYTHING besides your own prejudices?

Prove that moving a bunch of transient addicts into your neighborhood will lead to more property crime? Nah. You already know it and don't care. And I'll prove it: If I have nothing to worry about, then you'll have no problem with a policy of shooting thieves on sight, because according to you I'd never get the chance.

if you want to murder over theft, then you should have no issue with re education camps for causing insensitivity and causing offense.

see? I can be absurd too.

first off, the addicts tend not to be transient. they're neighbourhood regulars. they learn that by behaving themselves the neighbourhood will be kindly to them.

the services and shelters around here have also been around for decades... people that use them understand that they likewise rely on maintaining good community relationships to survive.

the instagram star chef that just opened up last summer who brings in a hip, exclusive condo critter crowd however... those fuckers are in front of my building at 2 am whoopin' it up. They're the ones with shitty bubble letter tags on murals, and frankly, they're the ones that get into the rare shootouts we have around here with their coke dealers.

see, you don't know shit and aren't interested in hearing from people who have experience or knowledge...

Karens: HALP DADDY GUBMENT! I CAN’T BARE TO SEE THE INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCES OF MY POLICY POSITIONS!!! GET ALL THE POORS OUT OF MY SIGHT!

Government: Okay. We’re gonna get them off the streets and into housing and supportive care.

Karens: OH NO! NOT LIKE THAT!

Your narrow anecdotes are no more universal than mine. Regardless, the amount of theft, vandalism and general bullshit I'm willing to tolerate is zero. I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt or holding any free adult to a lower standard. There is no "agreement" other than "don't fuck with me and I won't fuck with you," and you get no second chances.

"narrow anecdotes aren't universal"... that's pretty deep, for a puddle.

and sorry to be the one to tell you this dipshit, but an opinion built out of ignorance (you) isn't as valid as knowledge and regular experience (me) there's even a meme about this sort of thing.


I mean, other than the fact that I work with them, live in the neighbourhood, actually have access to and have looked at the stats, am involved in community planning-including frequently liaising with the cops over relevant things, communicate with my city councillor over local homeless and addiction issues, and likely a dozen other vectors... what could I possibly know about it that you haven't figured out by averting your eyes from the dirty people?


it doesn't matter what your intolerant ass will tolerate either... we were talking about the causes of it. much like a lynch mobber, you look to the easiest scapegoats.

I'm trying to come up with a scenario for how a welder knows more about homeless people than Turk, and best I can manage is a sci-fi story of him welding a robot out of brass plates and tubes, leaving him in the bad part of town, and coming back to him with needles in his arms, and poop in his chest door.

Goddammit.

Maybe a hunting season? I mean, ordinarily you don't need a license for vermin and nuisance animals but in this case the funds raised from tag fees could go to conservation and habitat preservation.

it doesn't matter what your intolerant ass will tolerate either... we were talking about the causes of it.

point of order... i think he said he works a punch machine.

IOW, only necessary as long as the cost effectiveness of a robot arm is an issue.

There's the irony... he's maybe a pay cheque or two away from being a client. Not uncommon, actually.