A tactic of the complicit passive bigot. T'bonz is a fucking karen

Thank you.

I identify as sarah fucking connor. Imagine that. come here toaster boy.

Sarah Connor never killed the terminator, nor did she ever fuck it. Get over yourself.

Yes she did kill it. She crushed it in a hydraulic press.

I thought that was Penny putting Inspector Gadget out of his misery… oh wait, that was Robot Chicken…

Compete?

Were the Harold and Kumar movies telling the truth?

I'm going to regret this...

Actually, you can. Bone marrow transplants do it, for one. But that's irrelevant. Outside of certain specialized medical treatments you can go your entire life and your DNA literally not come up in anything you do. It's not required to get a job or rent a home or get an ID. It's strictly medical.

What you are ACTUALLY thinking of isn't DNA but chromosomes. Fun fact, I can show you a person who carried a Y chromosome her entire life, was totally female in phenotype and identity and eventually gave birth to a female child...that had a Y chromosome. There are a multitude of variants, hard to say how many because almost everyone goes through life never having a karyotype and they don't KNOW if they are XX, XY, or something else. Unless it manifests some physical symptoms - and there are some extreme ones, see for example:

The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces - BBC News

If you want to get even deeper, it's not even actually the Y but one particular allyl on the Y that triggers the mother's body to release testosterone at two different points in pregnancy. If it is missing or mutated, things can go a little wrong. Thus the woman with a Y - the allyl was presumably missing.

But here's the key science - if you get one of those "T baths" and not the other, you have issues because the first one masculinizes the reproductive system and the second masculinizes the brain.

Can you do the math on that?

All that aside, again, IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER! No one has a karyotype test before they get married or take a job or do any other important thing in life. It's strictly a matter of certain relatively rare medical conditions.

So you should ask yourself why all THAT science doesn't matter - only the "intro to biology" class you had in middle school? What motivates you to care so much about a topic you don't even fully understand?

In a sense, it is - like being autistic (for one example). "Disorder" is a loaded term, however, and lumps being trans in with a lot of debilitating stuff like schizophrenia. That's a category error. It's a mental divergence, or anomaly if you prefer. "Normal" has no meaning except in a statistical sense. Being right handed is "normal" and being left handed is an anomaly, but it's not BAD or debilitating or in need of correction - you just adjust to it. Being a natural redhead is not statistically "normal" but it is also not a "disorder, just an anomalous outcome.

Likewise, being trans is an anomaly (of the brain, in this case) but when one adjusts to it, makes allowance for it, it's not debilitating - just not statistically "normal". The only debilitating thing about it is that we're surrounded by people who consider themselves authorities on the topic despite never learning a god damned thing on the topic, having no experience with it, or a common frame of reference... and then proceed to look down on and fuck with those of us who do. If you lot reacted to our anomalous condition the same way that you react to an epileptic, or an autistic person, or a fucking left-handed person, there would BE no controversy, no awkwardness, no resentment, no discomfort. One hundred percent of the "problem" of trans people existing is attitude like yours (and admittedly those who are worse).

No woman has ever had a single RIGHT taken away by trans women existing.

You've had some PRIVELIDGE compromised - in exactly the same way that white segregationists lost some privilege when "colored" restrooms were legally abolished. Their cultural tradition of not pissing in the same space as black people was never a RIGHT, and when that privilege was taken from them there was some discomfort, some fear, some awkwardness, and absolutely some irrational resentment. But they didn't lose a RIGHT and neither have you. You just wish you didn't have to adjust your long-held TRADITIONS.

The pronouns is actually another good example. People call goddamn CARS and boats "she" - no one gives a fuck. It's only your traditional view of people like me that makes it feel "dishonest". Everyone gets all pissy because someone wants to be called "they" - "Oh fuck no! They is always plural!!!"
But let someone say at the office "the big boss is coming on Friday" and if you've never met the big boss you could easily say "what time will they be here?"
Been that way since the 1500's. Why is it controversial now then? Bigotry. If folks who didn't understand something just searched their minds for a little empathy and let people "pursue happiness" in a manner that caused no harm to you, BOOM - the whole damn moral panic just goes away like steam.

We're all Star Trek folk so let me remind you of when McCoy wanted to ask Spock about what it was like to die and come back - "you lack a common frame of reference." You CANNOT understand me, any more than *I* can understand PMS - no common frame of reference. So don't presume to know what it is or how it feels or anything else. Know that when you do that I view you exactly the same way a mother would view some chud trying to explain to her that actually labor pains aren't really that bad and she should stop whining about them.

I'm not asking you to COMPREHEND - I'm asking you to EMPAHIZE with people who are dealing with an issue in their life that you were privileged to not have had in yours.


(oh, and for the record, I've never found any reason to dislike you and do not consider this an "internet war" - it's my fucking LIFE and thus, I'm obliged to defend it however futile the task)[/quote]

You're trapped by assumptions.

Let's use sports as an analogy to begin with. 25 years ago if someone says "if you let transwomen into women's sports they will utterly dominate and wreck it for everyone" that was a reasonably hypothesis (Renee Richards' failure to dominate aside) based on what we knew - a hypothesis, which if it is to have any value should be tested. and it was. For 20 years now trans women have been competing against cis women (on every level from L.A. school district to the Olympics) and in that time we've a MASSIVE sample size of women's athletic competitions and you know the one thing we have indisputably NOT seen? Trans participants dominating. Not even close. Ever win, even, is such an outlier that it becomes an item in the news and sometimes the courtroom - because it's RARE.

Hypothesis tested - and failed. Scientifically you're obliged to revise your conclusions in light of the outcome.

Same with restroom. Before it was legal anywhere it was not irrational to assume that it might lead to an elevated risk of assaults (notwithstanding trans women presenting as female have been using the ladies loo for a century or more, never doing anything that might get them clocked - hell I myself NEVER speak in the public restroom when I can't be seen because my voice is my least passable trait) but it's been recognized as legal for 50 years in some places and generally widespread (enough to create a massive statistical sample) for a couple of decades now...

That is, the hypothesis is being tested. And what were the results?

NO increase in sexual assault in such spaces;
NO correlation between the assaults that did happen and crossdressing disguises (such things, even by the most expansive definition, average less than one case a year);
NO increase in assaults after recognition is enacted;
NO disproportionate level of assaults in places with trans recognition as compared to those without on a per-capita basis;

Hypothesis tested. Failed. Revise conclusions. Ya know, if we're going to be all about science and shit.

You're at no more risk now that you ever were. You FEEL that you are not safer because you do not UNDERSTAND the topic you're dealing with. It's like the child afraid of monsters in his closet or under the bed. The feeling is genuine, and worthy of respect, but it is based on an erroneous view of the situation and the world around them.

Also, you cannot in fact "always tell" - not even mostly. It's certainly true that some trans women, particularly those who transitioned late, are cursed with the effects of testosterone that can't be changed - but it is also true that there are a LOT of manly looking, frankly ugly, cis women in the world, to say nothing of butch women. And the moral panic has gotten no small measure of such women attacked in the restroom because the "we can tell" crowd got it wrong.

You have no idea how many of us have shared space with you and never violated you but it's a LOT. Your discomfort with the ones you think that you clocked comes from the false assumption that WE think like men because their was a penis at some point in our existence...we do NOT. Never have. At least not to any greater extent than any demographic including cis women have a few predatory folks among them. I repeat, you fear what YOU DO NOT ***UNDERSTAND***

And apparently don't WANT to understand. Why prefer the fear instead of the growth?

Not every, not even most, women who have been assaulted fear us so it's not inevitable.

and don't resort to "well it's not you, it's the cis man who might take advantage..."

No. It doesn't work like that. Rapists - the vast majority (80% or more) of which are people already known and trusted by the victim - commit crimes of OPPORTUNITY. They do not (particularly the strangers) go to the trouble of an elaborate disguise (and if they wanted to they could much more simply pose as a janitor) and careful planning. They seize the moment. There are statistically essentially zero cases of women assaulted in those space by males (trans or cis) who are presenting as female in order to gain access. The outliers are so statistically rare as to be the equivalent of getting struck by lighting on the subway.

You're afraid of a thing that doesn't even happen. That person you see that LOOKS like a "man in a dress" to you? she's FAR more terrified of what will happen if someone calls her out than you are of the penis that may or may not be present.

Now, god knows I can't talk you out of an irrational emotional response, I'm not even really trying. I'm just stating facts and whether or not you choose to integrate those facts into your life as you move through the world is up to you. But you're not a prisoner of expanded rights for me, you're a prisoner of false ideas that cloud how you see the people around you. Your attacker did this to you, may he be cursed, but you elect to stay in the place he put you instead of growing.

I'm too lazy to cut and edit this shit on a cellphone but every single thing you just listed about the risks cis women face boil down to male entitlement over women's autonomy and bodies, and all these laws do is make cis AND trans women alike targets who don't fit white beauty standards. And far too many prominent TERFs have white nationalist ties and their campaign very often target Black cis women athletes.

I am extremely sorry for what you went through and I won't deny your trauma, but I also won't deny the reality that Black trans women are murdered at far higher rates than any group in the queer community and statistically, cis people are a way bigger threat to trans folks than the other way around. It's not even close.

Not at all. I treat them like I do anyone else. If you're a good person, super. If not, fuck off.

* *

Tererune "For that I thank you @T'Bonz for coming here and talking hard. In klingon fashion you have earned some of my respect.

You endured the pain of my flames and have responded with your insight."

Gads, another Kll'inghann. It figures. The Federation is full of them. [-/Romulan-]

I have no problem explaining my viewpoint if people are civil. You were. If people start getting nasty, life's too short. I'm old school - people used to have different opinions and talk without flipping the hell out. It's how politics used to be too, long, long ago.

* *

Spaceturkey, perhaps so, and I acknowledged some of that, but not to the extent that it happens to females. And how often is a woman going to assault you/rob you?

* *

Jenee, as I often say, YMMV. I will walk out of a restroom if a male is present unless a female friend is with me.

* *

14thDoctor:

Never saw 'em.

* *

Nova:

*Sigh* the usual attitude. Wanting a bio-female only bathroom is *not* fucking privilege. Wanting women's sports where a bioman with superior lung capacity/height/strength will not win the day is *not* fucking privilege.

As a mother, I would absolutely NOT want my teenaged daughters (when they were younger) in a changing room with a transwoman that had not gone through the surgical change (i.e. still having the male equipment).

If that offends, too damned bad. I'll put it in the language of the woke - biowomen deserve their own safe spaces. Your desire to be the opposite sex does not trump my right as a biowoman. That's the crux of the whole thing and all the tantrums and fussing and rage over this changes nothing. That is a sticking point for a helluva lot of women. Not all of them old farts like me. We're not all hateful bigots. In fact most of us are nothing of the sort. We just want to keep what we had - our own restrooms and our own sports where women wouldn't be overshadowed.

As for the pronouns, it's damned odd to use they (plural) for a singular person and other pronouns other than the usual, but that's small potatoes. Not everyone misgenders on purpose. I knew Amaris for a helluva long time as the other sex and habits are hard to break. I have to be very careful not to slip and use the wrong one.

If you include accomplice like actions such as triggering an assault by crying wolf over a perceptible slight or a robbery by acting as bait, fairly often.

gotta call you on "the language of the woke" and "Your desire...". In the former you're going pejorative as a dismissal and in the latter you're misrepresenting the known science. Transgenderism isn't a "desire" like wanting a job or to retire in Belize, it's literally the way some people are wired... all the tantrums and fussing and rage over that fact changes nothing. An appeal to tradition ("we just want to keep what we had...") is nothing but an emotional appeal at best and an awkward historic parallel at worst. Recall that trans swimmer we recently discussed where the outrage was that she was competing in an over 16+ Open category? Yeah, she doesn't even place in the top 20 against teen girls in her own club, let alone competitions.

people are who they say they are /shrug get used to "they", especially as NB/Gender Fluid identification becomes more common (gen Z are almost 30 now. they are the target demographic).

When did you become Albert's sock puppet.

@T’Bonz: It is my observation that trans women who haven’t been able to get bottom surgery would be trying to be as unobtrusive as possible, trying to find a corner or bathroom stall to change without being outed as different. Even bio women with big clitorises try to hide. I hid in junior high and high school because I was well endowed on top and had stretch marks. One girl in my class led the others in being cruel, and that was at a Christian school.

That's Nova's good-cop way of saying it.

My bad-cop way is "JK Rowling really dumped her shit in your ear with a funnel at the end of a cement truck chute."

Even JK is trapped by her own assumptions. I would like to ask her, “how judged did you feel as a single mother? Why foist judgment on others for how they were built?”

I get you have not been around for the more in depth discussions, and I do love to discuss this with those who will listen even if they happen to be opposed. This is because there is a huge amount of lies and misinformation being pushed to divide the trans community from feminist movements and I think that serves a purpose for the sexists and anti-female sexists to remove the infiltrators into their communities. I am an infiltrator as I exist in the white male community as a man for a long time, and I see the obvious sexism and find it appalling. This is why sexists want you to stop listening to me.

I have also pissed off the trans community by saying we have to be vigilant against false trans claims as open doors to molestation and endangering the female community. I am well aware of the horrible way male predators will use any avenue they think is available to become above question to gain access to private spaces and public trust to molest and assault women. I am sorry to the trasns community, but we need standards of commitment to the process before we start just allowing a person to be in female private areas. The idea that someone who just claims they are a woman with no indication that is the case should be allowed to just go into a private female space where there are multiple people who are potentially in a state of undress is wrong. There has to be some level of commitment to the process where the trasns person is on a public authority verified path to transition to get access to a certain level of private places. However, t a certain point if a person has trouble with "others" in a gendered public but private area, they need to find a more private solkution for themselves due to their personal level of comfort.

I would say difference. Disorder denoted a condition that means one cannot exist in society. It represents a condition that needs to be changed or treated to be a part of the community. The compulsion of gender dysphoria can be addressed mostly by allowing the person to present as the propeer gender and undergo cosmetic changes that only effect themselves to be more like that gender. Unlike a real anti social disorder than needs to be changed because that person is actring out and causing damage to others, this condition is a personal improvement decision that enhances a person's experience and makes them better. Sort of like curing depression. your depression is something you would want to end in yourself that allows you to be more functional in society, but is not really harming society. Me presenting as a woman in no way harms you, as would a person who is acting out aggressively due to anger issues.

If you study the treatment the attempts to cure or stop the compulsion to act as the other gender become harmful to the patient. You actually psychologically harm the person suffering gender dysphoria through every method we have found that might repress the behavior. It is a compulsion, and to stop compulsions normally causes psychological harm to the individual suffering them. Some of them we cannot permit and have to stop. If my compulsion is to rape kids and I get all mental when I do not rape kids, then I am fucked and society has to put me in a cage if I cannot stop my compulsion. If my compulsion is to go out and look pretty in a dress and live with society thinking I am a woman, then there is no reason to stop that as it does not harm other people. When that eliminates my discomfort there is no reason to stop it.

If academic people want to call it a disorder in medical academic discussions, I am ok with that. However, that should not be used to abuse by a bunch of people who think scientific discussion is a horrible indoctrination into the woke mind virus in other areas.

It is something very strange I have found in my experience that people are bothered referring to me with female pronouns when I am presenting as a woman as if there is some problem with it. When I discuss their motivation it is often they feel there is some disrespect in calling a man a woman. Not in all cases, but in most cases I have seen, they do not want to disrespect me. This is a real oddity that I have come to realize is how deep sexism has been ingrained into our heads. That respect to societal gender class is not based on equality of the genders and any sort of respect of the female position as an equal. That has always been a sexist tool to put women into a secondary place. Even the pride that feminists tend to have comes from a victimized group that cuts down their own equality when they put themselves into the position of the eternal second class victims where there is some sort of pride in being lesser that means trans women cannot be with them.

I get there is a physical difference with cis women that is intrinsically psychological with experiencing the physical differences of a female body and reproductive system. However, the stark difference of how women and men are treated in society can be best experienced by people who transition. I think, as a trans outsider to the female gender, that women need to address the victim mentality of the female side of the race because it is really a product of psychology resulting from the primative view of our different genders that needs to be evolved.

If I cared about TrekBBS moderation I personally would have long since been a huge thorn in the side of your moderation staff. You would have long ago known the name Tererun. That just happens to be a thing I am good at, and there are still moderators going through group therapy over me. I know because I have infiltrated their groups and still laugh at their folly because it amuses me. There are also a number of them that are easily butthurt trans discussion board mods who have banned me for my more TERFy opinions. I am actually good with TERFs defending against some of the whiny trans snowflakes who have tried to bully real women under the shield of being trans victims.

As you are a moderator I can imagine you have probably faced a few trans drama queens, and as a person who like the red meat of easily butthurt people I am cool with the reality you have probably sent a few of them screaming for the hills. They are a tasty bunch. even IRL I have had to take a couple of DQs and trans millenial bitches aside and let them know to steer clear of my flamejets because my crazy loves to throw the fuck down. If you cannot handle me flaming the fuck out of you as a tranny, you better hide from the big bad world now.

Like I said, I do not mind a good discussion aboyut trans issues, and to clarify some things that do not actually happen, like the idea that some guy just says they are a woman and goes into the women's bathroom without any backing, and everyone is just going to let that go. That idea is stupid, and anyone who would fall for it needs to be educated. However, let us recognize the true intent of these arguments is to make regular women afraid to go into the public restroom without being subject to doing their make up and looking like a man wants a woman to look like. The bathroom police used this sort of thing to play white knight on cis women who did not abide by their sexist standards of femininity. None of those bathroom warriors gave a fuck about females being empowered to get away from sexist starndards of femininity, and the TERFs were fooled into fighting against women being comfortable and the underlying financial anchors of make up, style, and resources men use to keep them down.

Second, you wandered in here pissed at Amaris and looking to kick her around. Amaris can handle herself, but you did walk into the seedy bar as the haughty taughty federation idiot, and picked a fight more based on politics and hating on the trannies in the room than beating on amaris. You are not in trekbbs federation territory anymore. Also, you should be really aware, I am a lot bigger than your little trekbbs solar system bullshit. I am amused by your history and find it intriguing due to my geeky nature and recognize the entertaining history you have with the sattelite of love here, but I have a bigger history than your site and this whole little mess. I am here for the drinks and fun and you pissed me off.

When you wander out of your prissy command deck over at trekbbs you need to remember your manners, because the people arouind here do not have your back, and they do not have to. They run their own place and do not owe you shit.

What the fuck movies were you watching? The original Terminator she crushed it in the press to finally kill it. In T2 she pushed the button to lower it into the molten metal, and she set the t1000 up to be killed. Once we get into her return from the dead post T3 she became the terminator terminator.

She also went full on kill skynet over the terminator, so do go fuck yourself. In the fucking series Sarah killed more T100s than most, and she did it without future weapons.

So I identify as sarah, and I will kick your shitty little boyfriend's T101 cyberdyne ass. Now do go give him his blowjob to soothe his go after being owned. Make him feel like a man after being owned by the evil internet tranny, because that is the job you signed up for you weak ass POS. Maybe get some self fucking respect and laugh with the rest of us over his toxic male spoiled pissbaby fit because it is funny.

even he knows Sarah kicked T101 ass.

I do have to admit, having been in the female restroom, I was worried about being outed by lack of sound of my piss in the water while sitting and peeing. Due to the way the male and female anatomy differ, when a male sits they do not pee directly into the water at an angle like women do. You have to do a little bending to hit the water which compresses the hose and lowers the speed and volume of the water coming out. Women pee with far more pressure and volume into the water pool at the bottom of the toilet.

It is a thing.

We have been down this road with Dumiurge and the reasons this is a manipulation of what is going on. Unless you are in the top of the top, this is not relevant for anyone, and the reasons the rest of us non genetic freakaziods play games is because it is a way we socialize and bond, and to keep trans people out of regular recreational and even ameture competitive play is just to harm trans people. except for a very tiny minority of the human race none of us are in a range where we are the best of the best due to the advantages of our gender. That sort of thing should be regulated at the top of the top, and that should be regulated by professional competition leagues and not by schools or recreational play where the purpose of participation is the participation.

As a person who participates in a number of recreational competitive leagues we need to teach our kids in school to play with each other and understand play from a less toxic competitive angle that none of them are going to be a part of anyway. I bowl, and all across america women and men play together in competition in a sport that is very much effected by the physical speed you can propel the ball down the lane for a number of games.

That is as bad as saying I do not want my girls in the room with a person who has black skin. Sorry, but the problems of girls changing clothing near a person with a penis are a purely human created psychological malfunction. Nothing happens to a girl if a man sees her vagina. Also, a man should be able to see their vagina without becoming an uncontrolled sex attacker. If he cannot do so he needs to be in a cage. This entire fucking mental dysfunction is the result of a mass insanity created by religion. We created this shit, and frankly it causes things like perverse sexual compulsion to see naughty bits. This is a sickness that society has forced upon you by raising everyone that the prime purpose we judge our success on is sexual prowice and how many boobies we see. Your genitals are not sacred, and you need to get the fuck over that shit.

The whole need for a supposed safe space for biowomen to exist is based upon the sexist idea that women's naughty bits are some sort of sacred curse put upon them by god. Nothing bad happens to you if I see your boobies or vagina. The only bad things that happen from that are social creations made to shame you because of your genitals. That is a construction of the sexist male dominated society we live in. That is made to commercialize and profit off of seeing boobies. That commercial profit has never benefitted women over men. I would be all for it if women took the power of selling their bodies to men away from men, but as a feminist you must realize that is a huge way that men have continually turned women into objects they can control. When it falls upon men showing their genitals for profit the whole world reacts like it has to be kept from their eyes because the penis is so disgusting it makes people want to vomit.

How can you claim to be a feminist while wholesale buying into this system of bullshit that makes the bodies we are born with a fucking trap to the sexism that has forever been a part of out social psychology. Your very hatred of trans women is completely created by sexism and you are so stuck in that sexist women are objects mentality that you are actually joining with the sexist males in defending it, and fighting for the very structures that keep you oppressed as some fucking object they need to possess so they can put it on a pedestle to jerk off too.

Here is where female pride takes a hit from trans women. You like being the objects of beauty that put you in the special little princess category. Sexism is all big and bad until you have to stop being the princess everyone worships and come down to equality. It is nice to be the special someone who everyone chases and wants because their boobs make them pretty. OMG you cannot be the ones everyone admires for being pretty. What if a man looks better in a dress than you do?

Well suck it the fuck up princess, because I fucking do. Not only that, but I suck dick better than you do too. I am so fucking good at it I make gay dudes bow at my feet while I am in a dress, and I make straight dudes hard. I make many women jealous. That fucking terrifies you. That is not me, that is your own insecurity.

Before you get mad, that is the bullshit that society has sold you. They have told you that you are less of a person unless you have people beating down your door and wanting to see you naked. That is the value you aspire to when you pretend your body is some sacred vision that has to be protected by a changing room because someone steals your value if they see you how you were fucking born to this world.

TERFs have to start realizing they are being duped to fight against trans women while participating in the sexism of society. The only thing they will ever police in a female restroom is a cisgender woman who goes in there not looking feminine enough. That is what they did after the bathroom bills. They chased cisgendered women into and out of the bathrooms for being too male in appearance. They wanted to demand that all women had to dress more like women to use public restrooms, and they got TERFs to intimidate and harass ugly women to do it.

Do not get pissed at me for being the messenger. You should have never sided with the sexist religious right because they are evil manipulators who want to disrespect women and treat them like sex objects. Trans women are not keeping you down.

Cisgender women should want to work with trans women, because we're all in the same boat. Yeah, our individual differences will vary, but we're both looking to be free of molestation, of unequal privilege at the hands of a patriarchal system that sees us as objects. Anyone who believes that trans women are just trying to pretend in order to gain access to cisgender women in private spaces has been duped. It's like when some dumbass white guy thinks an immigrant is coming to take his job and get free welfare. There's no actual basis to it, but it is very beneficial to the people who want to control you to make you think it's true.

Trans women are looked down on by these men because they think men are giving up their god given right to manhood and taking on the role of a submissive woman, and they find that disgusting because of how they consider women.
Trans men are looked down upon by men because they think they're women trying to assume the role of a god given man's right to dominion over women.
Trans non-binary folks are looked down upon by men because they believe non-binary people are just confused, don't know what they want, and they won't "stay in their lane" so they can be properly labeled and disregarded.

All trans people can be ogled, used, and dispensed with by these same men, and often are. In some of the most conservative states, transgender porn is some of the most viewed material on the internet. So we're good as sex objects and fantasies, but the moment we step out of line, when we stop being sex objects, toys, and entertainment value, when we begin to live our lives and express ourselves outwardly for who we are, we have to be dealt with. Those men will use feminism, and will get women to do the dirty work in the process. Look at JK Rowling, famous author and piece of shit, who claims she's a feminist, and yet she participates in that same patriarchal mentality to oppress women because they don't fit the standard a society built by men has decreed them.

Well, I'm a woman.
I don't look like much of one but, by god, an ugly woman is still a woman.

A rapist will just as readily attack me as any other woman, trans or cis, doesn't matter.
An abuser will hit me just as readily as any other woman, trans or cis, doesn't matter.
An employer will deny me a position just as readily as any other woman, trans or cis, doesn't matter.

TERFs need to quit helping cisgender men oppress people. They need to gain intersectional awareness, find out how we're connected to one another, and learn who their real enemies are, because until they do, they're just reinforcing their own cages.

Maybe this is more of a matter of public shame for trans women. I know you want to play the game, but perhaps in individual sports like swimming or track and field events you strop fucking around because WTF are you doing? Maybe you get on the field and compete but do not get counted in the prizes. I get you want to be there with your peers and play the games at the same time they do, but maybe when it comes down to the actual scoring and records you compete with your best and try to be your best.

I have been there at the top of a game, and believe me it was not a challenge to win the game of paintball against 99 percent of people. Maybe it is time we pull this one swimmer aside and ask them what is wrong with your mind that you are getting amped up about beating a bunch of girls? In the end the reality is the local contests where someone is all thrilled they are the best in the middle of some asshole in the middle of nowhere town really should STFU with their bragging as being the best in the middle of nowhere does not count for shit even on the male side. Maybe you are Micheal Jordan growing up, but more likely you are just bob smith and you were not even going to make the top of the ametures, even in the women's division.

Oh, and to the little blonde girl whining she was beaten by a trans woman, you were not good enough anyway, and that is why you make a living playing the blonde bimbo for the right wing men to jerk off to. You were nothing, and the trans woman didn't take shit away from your lazy half ass. You never ranked anywhere outside your small little hole in the eareth, and even there you were not the best. No trans woman stole her spot. She is right where she should be sucking rupert murdocks dick for a job telling other women all they are is a sex commodity for faux news men.

Hope bimbo's looks don't fade and she becomes the next Megyn Kelley. There is another bimbo who needs to shut the fuck up and get sucking on that old white dick.

Substitute "whites only" for "bio-female only" in that sentence then run in back in your mind.
Still sound innocent?
"It's not the same!" you'll say, but it is - literally identical.
The very concept of sex-segregated spaces is a cultural custom, just as racial segregation was. Lots of other places do it differently. WE did before public restrooms were a thing. A mild adjustment to a cultural custom isn't a loss of rights (generally, such adjustments are made to EXPAND rights and have been done many many many ties in our country over the last century or so to expand women's rights specifically) it's simply a slight variation on privilege.

If they are so superior why don't they win more?
Also, if it's so obviously offensive why do the majority of cis female atheletes that have expressed an opinion on the record are perfectly fine with it? By a WIDE margin in fact, but they seldom get as much spotlight.

How would you know? About surgery?
You know the one thing about all those news stories of "I saw a penis in the YMCA!" have in common?
They're inevitably hoaxes.
Some religious zealot comes to learn a member is trans and creates a story about flashing. More than one so accused person HAD already had GRS and had no penis to expose.

You know the funny thing about the penis? WE hate the goddamn thing so much we barely want to touch it let alone look at it in the mirror or whatever (tranny porn notwithstanding, which is generally driven by economics like sex work in general) they you can rest assured we sure as fuck don't want to show it to you or your daughter. Again, that's a very swift path to an ass beating, and/or jail, and/or being made infamous by ADF. We are more terrified of you than you could imagine being of us.

Right. So we can deliberately out ourselves to everyone in eyesight every time we use a pubic restroom. What could possibly go wrong?

No RIGHTS are at stake, for either of us in fact. Not on the bathroom issue. The only right in play on any of this stuff is equality before the law. Laws that specifically target us for second class status violate THAT right, but no one has any objective RIGHT to the circumstances of how they pee. You have a right to equality before the law. if the law said that all businesses must provide a restroom for males (and had no such requirement for females) THEN you'd have an issue of rights.

Laying that aside, your entire premise is that your "right" to not be discomforted in my presence supersedes my "right" to live in peace and not out myself to strangers whenever I need to use the loo. Less than 1% of the population, most of which you'll never even notice, do not constitute the massive invasion of your space that you think it is. Moreover, all of us choose single seat locking spaces when they are available anyway BECAUSE we don't want the grief of someone's paranoia (and again, I remind you that "biowomen" have OFTEN been attack as potential penis havers by paranoid terf-influanced (or religious zealot) people). It's not just us the are endangered by the moral panic.

One need not be a self-aware bigot to hold bigoted ideas, indeed it's likely the majority of actual bigots don't recognize that in themselves and would strongly deny the charge. But even if not, is someone who is convinced that they didn't get that job because the black guy who got it was an "affirmative action hire"? not necessarily - but the view he expressed is a bigoted view.

AGAIN. Two decades of evidence indicate that trans women have not and will not "overshadow" cis-women athletes. If that fear were legit it would have happened by now. How long are we supposed to be second class citizens while we wait on these predicted damages to appear?

I mean, we'll never know since almost no trans females ever even win and certainly don't dominate.

Pick basically anyone that the right wingers have held up and said "Unfair!" and that person doesn't in any sense dominate there competition. Those girls that the ADF convinced to sue in MA? They've beaten those two trans girls they sued over more than the lost to them. Considerably more. And both of those are in college on scholarships (one athletic) while both the trans girls are done.

Meanwhile, the TERFS are over here insisting that trans women have an unfair advantage at disc golf, and billiards, and goddamn CHESS. It's pretty obvious they're agenda isn't fairness but exclusion. Segregation or elimination.

And if we needed any more evidence - IF in fact the TERF/Moralist crowd REALLY only wanted to spare cis girls and women from the unfair advantages (some) AMAB people gain via puberty....then why do they keep pushing laws that apply K-12? like an 8 year old AMAB child has a physical advantage over their cis peer?

Uh huh.

Moreover, why do the SAME people fight vigerously to outlaw puberty suppression and HRT in minors which if it were commonly available would virtually eliminate the presume advantage that they go on about?

Look, I know that YOU don't need convincing on this point but I don't agree with even humoring the delusion by saying "well, maybe trans folks could just throw the race"

They literally DO NOT CARE about the integrity of the race. They want us eliminated from public life and the sports thing is nothing but an emotional wedge issue. Same as the bathroom bullshit.

As we can see in this thread, a significant portion of the population is vulnerable to that manipulation.

This. "Separate but equal" has been a long used tactic in matters like these, and the "but equal" part is never true.

Indeed.

They're over there worried that we want to rape them and we're over here manipulating THE SOUND OF OUR PISS in order to not get fucking arrested.

And, having done the dance AGAIN, unless someone makes a new and unique bullshit claim, I'm done here.

You can state all the clear unambiguous facts you want, but if someone is deeply invested in their biases you're not going to ever see them respond with "Gee, I never thought about it like that. I see your point."

Still, occasionally I can't help myself.

It's always sad to see feminists act this way. They've broken ceiling after glass ceiling, and have successfully climbed the ladder in so many ways. But then, as soon as trans women are mentioned, that ladder gets pulled up after them. In the end, it really seems to boil down to this fear that trans women are just a Trojan Horse, another way for men to dominate feminity--in this case, "if we can't beat 'em, join' 'em." Trans women are not tourists. They're not part time women, out to stake a claim in a woman's territory for men everywhere. How is this difficult to understand.

I may be slightly fucked up on Nyquil right now, but T'Bonz' s whole argument seems to come down to "I don't like trans women in principle. But long as they don't bother me or do anything/go anywhere I consider an exclusively biowoman's province, I'll begrudgingly tolerate them and not be openly bigoted." Wow, what generosity of spirit. I bet some of her best friends are trans women! I hope they know not to follow her into the bathroom, though.

You all are being a lot nicer and more respectful to her than I'd be in your shoes.