30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11B.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Not being conservative, I really don't give two shits as to whether your conservative or not. But hey whatever martyr complex suits ya.

Who is saying that we ignore anything? You seem to be saying that more enlightened folks are going to save the day, where are these saviors? Cause they sure as hell ain't in Washington or Wall Street, the two places that got us into this mess and robbed the victims blind. MF Global has robbed hundreds if not thousands of farmers blind, but I'll be shocked if we see the Wall Street/Washington poster boy himself anywhere near a jail cell.

Take a moment, and you'll see that the people your arguing with aren't defending corporate corruption, that's just the self made cross you've decided to carry.

Buy you won't, you've got too much emotion tied up in your martyrdom, and righteous yet impotent outrage is a helluva drug.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

It wasn't that way just 20 years ago. Last time shit like this went down, over a thousand guys in the S&L scandals went to jail.

That is the problem - that they can do it with impunity now.

Considering that the majority of posters here barely blink when a major corruption scandal hits business then turn around and start spinning how the government is always to blame, you'll excuse me if I don't point out that they are full of shit.

I've been citing both sides consistently.

If you want to look for ideologues, you can find them here in droves.

Ah yes, my martyrdom - that would be doing well for myself in one of the richest areas of the country. Clearly that is my cross to bear.

I don't get pissed off only when it affects me. I care about my friends and loved ones too, and I even care about the poor fuckers in Cleveland and Oklahoma City that are busy getting reamed while they take it in the ass because they just can't afford the same level of representation in our democracy that GE can.

If it is going to be fixed, its guys like that that are going to do the heavy lifting.

And yes, people pointing out the bullshit out in the ethernet is one way that it gets started.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Wait, someone said we should do away with government oversight? I've stated multiple times that the lack of proper government oversight is the reason big business can manipulate the system so that it benefits them but screws the rest of us over.

The interesting part in this post is you basically admitting that you need a strong but limited government to hold those dirty, thieving bastards in check, thereby admitting that the government controls the board. Isn't that what I've been trying to say?

Either way, if you go back in history and look at all the examples of corrupt businesses ruining a country/economy, almost all of them involved a corrupt government getting kickbacks or bribes from the business side.

And if you look back in history at strong economies, you'll notice numerous examples of strong but limited government keeping everything running smoothly, and NO kickbacks or bribes being paid out to up the profit margin or get more taxpayer funding in the name of subsidies.

What you seem to not understand while you're busy burying your head in the sand is that there are a lot of businesses that operate both in Canada and the US. Here in Canada they play by Canadian rules, pay Canadian taxes and are subject to Canadian regulations. We have a relatively simple tax code, strict and perhaps a bit too much regulation, and limited loopholes that businesses exploit. So the same business that pays the 15% corporate tax rate here in Canada, and for the most part doesn't complain, is spending millions lobbying members of Congress to create loopholes that allow them to bring down their corporate tax rate to 10%. Why? Because the US government has created a system that allows them to do so.

I'll give you another example in terms of energy regulation since you brought it up earlier.

I can think of at least 5 different oil companies that have offices in Houston and Calgary. Every single one of them does oil exploration/drilling in both Texas and Alberta. The interesting part is that here in Canada, they are subject to Canadian/Alberta regulations in terms of how they extract the oil, etc, etc. In the US they are subject to the same regulations. Difference is, here in Canada the government isn't allowing them to write their own regulations. They HAVE to abide by the regulations put forth by the government. Apparently in the US these companies are writing their own regulations. What is so interesting is the CEO for these companies is in charge of both the Canadian part of the company and the American part as well. As is the CFO, CIO, etc, etc. The legal counsel is the same. Their accounting firm is the same. And you're trying to tell me that these oil companies are completely corrupt and very much at fault, despite the FACT that this company I'm talking about is not bribing Canadian officials, not writing their own regulations in Canada, not exploiting the Canadian tax code? But IS doing all that in the US?

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

It's a pretty clever update of the fox/hen house metaphor.

What's idiotic is thinking that increasing the power of the government will reduce government corruption.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Yeah, if you're stupid and brain damaged.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

So I guess I'm asking, what's your point? What exactly are you trying to argue against?

What Demi is arguing against is the pervasive sentiment here that if we just didn't have any government then there wouldn't be any corruption. So the answer to lower corruption is to dismantle the regulatory machine "Get Government out of Business!" Also slash tax rates while your at it. If the government isn't taking any money from business, then business doesn't have to worry about trying to exploit loopholes.

But if you just cut regulations and taxes, without improving the governing system, simplication and beefing up enforcement, you just make it easier for Big Business to exploit the government and the economy. Why woud Big Business want to give up their power to write regulations and pay no taxes?

In order to get any kind of reform passed, the buying and selling of votes has to be brought to an end. You admit how much power the corporations have, how can you not admit that when they own the government saying it's a government problem rings hollow. What's your solution?

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

I have never said that big business doesn't have the power to influence government.

My point is that power only exists because the government allows it.

My solution? I have no idea what the hell you can do until you get people on Capital Hill that really want to change things. In other words, it takes too long for scumbags like Barney Franks to retire, so unless you want to wait another 30 years for all those morons to retire, nothing will change because the people who CAN change things don't want things to change.

If you actually get people there that want to do things differently, its easy. Simply the tax code and take a whole new look at regulations and how they are applied.

The problem is rather simple. Solution not so much.

But, the government controls the board.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

As long as money controls elections, big business will control the elections and thus the government, meaning they control the board. THAT is what Demi and I are saying.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

I won't go quite as far as Anc and say that Big Business 'controls' government, but he's materially correct in saying that Big Business wields ridiculous amounts of influence over the Government, is often even the same people jumping to and fro, and its influence needs to be limited for the welfare of the average citizen.

He's spot on when he says that a common theme here is that the problem is only with the government, and that's just silly - it's completely amoral point of view not to also point out that the people paying the bribes to rig the game are at least as much (and in my opinion often more) to blame.

The media blocks access by fundraising to debates - they often won't let you into the debate without X amount of funding. We stifle the voices of smart people, and make it so they have to take funding from the megacorps before they can even try to run for any high office. It corrupts the system inherently.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Excellent point. Let's see if we can put it in words the Red Room can understand:

Dear Ron Paul/Gary Johnson, etc. supporters: Take a look at your candidate's funding sources. Then ask yourself why your guy is habitually marginalized during the debate process.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11


Show me one fucking candidate with totally pristine, unimpeachable sources of campaign funding.

The fact that you people think any of them aren't corrupt weasely ratfucks is what's worthy of mockery in all this.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Fuck you and your dumb little games.

Singling out someone else's "guy" implies that the same criticism can't be applied to your own "guy."

So, either you misspoke and actually meant everyone's guy, or you can give me the name of this candidate with spotless funding.

Go on, tell me you're not answering because I'm rude, and not because you're hopelessly full of shit and couldn't provide a substantial answer if someone put a gun to your head.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Nope. Again, look at who Ron Paul's contributors are. Not a Goldman-Sachs among them. That's all I meant. It's not my fault you're too dim or too perpetually angry to understand basic English any more.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Now you're starting to get it.

This is a systematic problem.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

And working within the system is not going to fix it. Throwing tantruns until "the system" starts working contrary to its nature is not going to fix it, either.

Either you burn the whole mess completely to the fucking ground, including everything you like about it, and then start over, or you're pissing in the wind.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Not true. Washington (state) has a pretty good job with it's open meetings, public disclosure and campaign finance laws. Not to mention the ending of state support for the two party system via primaries. Obviously more work can be done, but it proves that there can be positive movement within the system.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

You ever ask to borrow $20 from your deadbeat friend who's always broke? It is impossible to exploit a government that has nothing to exploit. As for the economy, exploiting it is pretty much the basis of capitalism. It is when government interferes that things start going south.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Well there you go. Grow a scraggly beard, stop showering, collect up some rocks to throw and a cardboard sign, get down to the port authority and stick it to "The Man."

While it may be very hard to compete with big corporations to elect politicians, it remains the most viable option. Shout "corporations are the problem!" all you want. What is actionable on that? Trashing a public park? How does that address the problem?

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

So why was The Obama given the red carpet treatment during the 2008 debates? Did "Doodad Pro" pull ahead of Microsoft on the Fortune 500 lists while I wasn't looking?

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

It doesn't, but it's way more fun than just spending your life disciplining yourself against all the endless ways you might personally contribute to the problem. That's an actual personal sacrifice that isn't as exciting as camping out in a park for a month while you shit in a bucket, block traffic, wreck businesses, yell at cops, and argue about who's in charge of the revolution.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

While I don't agree with all the tactics of the OWS movement it has certianly raised awareness of problems to out system. More people are talking about those problems, more people are talking about various solutions, who knows maybe some good will come of it. I know in Washington (state) there have been some positive movements as a result.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

That's simply not true. You think that if taxes were lowered they wouldn't keep trying to get out of those taxes? Or still be trying to get subsidies? Of if you cut some regulation, they won't try just as hard to get out what's left?

Exactly, we can start with government interference with the creation of corporations and go from there.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

then you have to prove what is a favor, and what is a "necessary" government action.

Take farm subsidies. Every time they are passed, it's not openly stated "we owe these companies a big favor" it's "if we don't, bad things will happen"

For all intents and purposes we already have laws against the actuons you describe.

doesn't stop them.

All this about "make lobbying illegal feels warm and fuzzy to say, but make no mistake - money and power will ALWAYS game the system, whatever the system is.

We might gain a temporary respite while they are re-calculating, but that's all

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

Yeah, some people will always game the system but that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them. Outlawing bribing politicians (and that's all "campaign donations" are) is a great place to start.

Re: 30 Multinationals who paid more for Lobbyists than they did Taxes. Made $164B got $11

He did all of that BEFORE he enlisted in the army.