Bernie Backers, When Are You Going To Admit Your Candidate Didn't Have A Chance?

I'll concede that Bernie quite possible would have picked up one or two of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania in 2016. Hillary lost the three by a small margin, and a lot of the factors why (poor campaign strategy, "but her emails," Clinton fatigue, boredom with the status quo, sexism) wouldn't have applied to Bernie. But I don't think any of those states would have taken kindly to a socialist. And I am pretty sure he loses either Illinois or Virgina, among states Hillary won.

BTW, this is something I just don't get about the "DNC is evil and stopped Bernie from being the nominee" argument. Surely if the DNC wanted to, they could have come up with some rule that straight-up blocked Bernie from running either in 2016 or 2020. You have to be a registered Democrat for two years prior to the primary, for instance. You can be disqualified for talking smack about the DNC. Or they could have made superdelegates even more important. They could have made up any rule that they want, just about. And yet they didn't.

The other thing I don't understand is the hack of the DNC back in 2016 presumably got all the DNC's e-mails. Surely if there was a smoking gun as the DNC putting the fix in, you'd find it in their e-mails? But the worst thing I've seen out of them was that somebody mused about trying to get a reporter to ask a question before a primary about Bernie's true religious beliefs.

What I don’t get is the blind belief that either political party is immune to corruption. Regardless of Bernie or Hillary or any other candidate, why do you think your party, in this case, Democrats, are more pure than the other party?

Never said or even suggested that Democrats are more pure than Republicans in how they operate. Don't think anybody in this thread has.

This also has nothing to do with any of the issues raised here: that if Bernie couldn't fight the obstacles the DNC and the media put in his path to win the Democratic nomination, it stands to reason that -- since the obstacles the RNC and FOX would put in his path would almost certainly be greater -- that he couldn't fight those obstacles either.

Have you paid ANY attention at all the last 4 years?

Who believes that the DNC is immune to corruption?

I guess that raises a good point. I assumed that Jenee was not talking about the policies that each party supports or anything but their internal politics.

In other words, I think the Republicans have supported things ranging from kids in cages to various levels of racism to incompetence with the coronavirus to blindly following Trump in a way that Democrats would generally avoid.

But I don't think that the DNC is above backstabbing Bernie or any other candidate as a moral thing. I just think that there is precious little evidence that the actual DNC did much beyond send bitchy e-mails that didn't affect the vote. I think that they could have blatantly blocked Bernie from being a candidate but made the calculated decision not to for fear of alienating left-wing voters.

That said, for the sake of discussion, I'm willing to concede that the DNC and the media are the reason we didn't get Bernie as the Democratic nominee in 2016.

Apparently Raoul and garamet. First I’m accused of ... well, I don’t know what because she won’t answer, then I’m told the DNC is some holy trinity, now I get all this bullshit and am asked who believes the DNC is immune to corruption. You guys need to make up your minds about what it is you’re arguing about. Cuz I sure as fuck don’t know.

Badda-bing!

Or you could start addressing actual posts that actual posters have made instead of a parade of straw men. Literally no one has said that the DNC is any sort of holy trinity when it comes to internal politics. It is better morally when it comes to things like not thinking that there are good people on both sides, not supporting Trump or any candidate blindly, and things of that nature. I have said that I doubt the DNC ever meaningfully hurt Bernie's chances not because it is holy and good but out of a pragmatic calculation that it didn't want to antagonize Bernie's voters. But my personal beliefs on that point doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion, and nor do anyone else's.

For the purposes of this discussion, the DNC and the media went to the mattresses against Bernie and were a major source of his failure. That in my mind confirms that he could not win in the general because the forces against Bernie in the general would have been just as powerful, if not more so, and would have had less reason to hold back.

I'll try to break it down for you again, this time in a series of yes-no questions. I think the answers to each is an obvious yes. If you don't, feel free to explain why you think the answer to any is no.

You claim that Bernie was prevented from winning the Democratic nomination because the DNC and the media worked against him, true?

If he won the nomination, then, wouldn't the DNC and the media continue to work against him in the general?

Is the RNC at least as powerful as the DNC?

Is FOX and the right wing media at least as powerful as the mainstream media?

Did Hillary and Joe still want Bernie's voters?

Did Hillary and Joe seek Bernie's endorsement after they won the primary?

Isn't it true that Trump didn't particularly want Bernie voters?

Isn't Trump's style more scorched-earth anyway?

Bernie is a self-proclaimed socialist, right?

And lots of American voters don't like socialism, do they?

The presence of a socialist in the general election would fire up voters on the right and the middle to vote against him, right?

Black voters on the whole didn't really like Bernie that much, did they?

Older voters on the whol didn't really like Bernie that much, did they?

Black and older voters are two of the most important constituencies in the Democratic Party, aren't they?

Bernie has never shown an ability to attract young voters or non-voters in terms of the primary, has he?

And yet, Bernie as a general election candidate might get voters to stay home or cross over to Trump, right?

In fact, isn't one of the main arguments the Trump campaign is using against Biden that he's a pawn of the left wing?

Bernie's inability to overcome the DNC and the mainstream media means that he could not have overcome the RNC and the right-wing media, doesn't it?

In terms of the Electoral College, there are few if any states that Bernie could have won that Hillary didn't, true?

And at the same time, he probably would have lost some states that she did win, like Illinois and Virginia, true?

Don’t you have to get a judge’s permission before treating a witness as hostile?

Heh...when a witness repeatedly refuses to answer a question, any judge would probably allow that treatment. Also, certain parties can inherently be treated as hostile from the jump.

So, this thread IS addressed to me specifically? Cuz as far as I know, the only post addressed to me specifically was garamet's post which I've repeatedly asked for clarification.

Personal beliefs don't matter for this discussion? Why not? Are we now some sort of end all and be all of all things political? You do realize this is an internet message board, right? all this is, is the personal opinions of the posters. To believe otherwise is foolish on your part.

And that's my whole point. So, again, why are you arguing with me?

Break it down for me? ok please. Let's do.

Yes. and ... So did you -"have said that I doubt the DNC ever meaningfully hurt Bernie's chances not because it is holy and good but out of a pragmatic calculation that it didn't want to antagonize Bernie's voters. But my personal beliefs on that point doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion, and nor do anyone else's." But, for whatever reason you think my opinion should be held to some ... moral or political standard.

One would think the DNC would have backed their nominee.

Probably.

Not even remotely sure of where you're going with this and the last question. Yes, the opposition, in the case, the RNC, would attack the Democratic candidate, just like they do in every other election.

One would assume so.

I don't know if they did or didn't.

No idea.

Compared to what? any other president or candidate ever in US history, yes, I believe so. Not sure what that has to do with my support of Bernie

I believe he calls himself a Democratic Socialist. But, yea, so?

I think most Americans do support and like socialism, they have just been conditioned to believe it is something else.

Not if the DNC and media had chosen to enlighten Americans on what socialism is, rather than continue the scare tactics from the 50s.

I don't know. I can only tell you of my personal experience. Friends of mine, who are black, never argued against my support of Bernie.

Again, can't say. I can only tell you of my personal experience. Friends of mine, who are older than I am, had a broad range of where they stood on each topic. Some topics, everyone agreed with Bernie. In fact, those same issues Bernie raised in 2016 were the norm for the Democratic debates in 2020.

Don't know. Could be that younger voters do not believe the Democratic party represents them. In which case, maybe it's not the voters, but the Party at fault.

uhmm... So, if Bernie didn't get Black voters, or older voters, or now young voters, who did he get?

OMG. Do you know how many people didn't vote for the president in the 2016 General because they weren't going to vote for Hillary or trump? You are going deep into speculation territory here.

I don't even know what that means. Any candidate for either party would be a pawn.

Are you saying the DNC cannot compete with the RNC? If so, why bother voting at all?

I don't know. All I, or you, can do is speculate. I say yes, you say no. Who's right? We have no way of knowing. So, why is this a point of contention?

Again, this is speculation. We just don't know.

Witness? hostile?

Why the fuck am I on trial?

Like Cthulhu before he's had his coffee!

If it causes voters to peel away from Biden for the general election and he thinks Biden wins the primaries anyway, why wouldn't he be upset?

Dinner has devolved into a sucker for right-wing propaganda, and "Hate the DNC, the DNC screwed Bernie" has been a right-wing talking point since 2016.

That was a joke aimed at Raoul, not at you.

I would have expect him to pick up all three. It was 80,000 votes in total.

And Virginia was definitely in play. Just two years later a social democrat who was not funded at all by the Democratic party knocked off the Republican majority whip. 20 miles away the first transsexual candidate was elected.

Illinois, I don't know about - but Bernie's biggest advantage was that he wasn't Hillary. Not that I think Hillary was a bad candidate mind you - she was light years better than Trump. But she's the only one that had even close to the same levels of negatives about her, largely due to 20 years of Republicans poisoning the well.

Honestly, I think she is the only candidate that does lose to Trump in that election. Hell, rampant misogyny no doubt cost her several points by itself.

Which is a shame. We'd be in a far better place if she were POTUS.

I think the problem with Hilary, and now Biden, is that they can't energize support in swing states to get the voter participation required to win the EC. HRC may have won more votes than Trump nationwide, but how many people didn't even bother (60% of eligible voters didn't, no?)because they found the choice was shit with or without sprinkles?

At a bare minimum, the chart of presidential administrations by number of criminal indictments, going back to Nixon, demonstrates why the "oh, well, nobody's pure, both parties are just as bad" line is pure horseshit.

Oh. Ok. So, Democrats are Angels. Got it. No corruption whatsoever. and no one is tied to big money.

@Jenee apparently lives in a black&white universe. This is her go-to screed every time the topic of political parties comes up. The rest of us can save a lot of time and energy by checking out the last time she tried this (begins around Post #130): https://wordforge.net/index.php?threads/go-home-karen-youre-drunk.120054/page-3#post-3249669

@garamet apparently lives in a black&white universe. This is her go-to post every time the topic of well, anything comes up. The rest of us can save a lot of time and energy by checking out any other post she has ever posted.

There is no chance that Illinois or Virginia would have gone red in 2016 under ANY scenario or candidate. I do think that Florida would have been a non starter for Bernie considering his poor performances there in both 2016 and 2020. Socialism, no matter how you dress it up, doesn't play well with the Cuban community down there.

I do think that Bernie had the deck stacked against him in 2016, it was so obvious what the DNC was doing. But this year? He lost fair and square.

Yeah, the fact that Castro called his run of the mill tin horn dictatorship "socialism" poisoned the well for any possible discussion of anything resembling actual socialism.

Wow, you copied my post almost verbatim. You must be so proud! You left out the pertinent part, though: https://wordforge.net/index.php?threads/go-home-karen-youre-drunk.120054/page-3#post-3249669

Did you or did you not post the same song-and-dance in that thread?