Characters and their story arcs...

Hi Wordforge writers,

I was wondering, when you develop a story, do ALL the characters in it have to show growth and development throughout the story in order for it to be good?

I am writing a fantasy story, based upon the time before "Noah's Flood" where the Serepham and mankind interacted together and it brought all sorts of consequences.

There are a few main characters in it, but the secondary or support characters don't seem to have anything to do, besides help the main ones out.

I don't want to do something as generic as "They are joining because they also want to save the world".

And also, how much time should you spend figuring out their backstory if you think you may want to kill them off fairly early in the story?

As to the larger question of plotting things out, I've done it both directions.

Torrent2 and Heck Backlash had a plan.
Torrent1, and the latest one I'm doing I made up/am making up as I go along.
All the short skits came to me whole cloth, and I just dictated 'em offa my brain tape.

They all work, and I haven't noticed any radical difference in the final results.


As for fleshing out secondary characters, if you don't want them to be scenery, but at the same time, you don't wanna give 'em each a whole chapter if you're just gonna kill 'em off, give 'em just a page or two.

Y'know what I'm using as a mental focusing trick for that?

Ever see those commercials where they zoom in on the free lives on Pac-Man, and Dig-Dug, and they have a little conversation?

Think like that.

Zoom in on a couple bit players, give 'em a little skit conversation, and there, they're established.

Even if you're not going to 'kill them off', describing all secondary characters in as much depth as you use for the primary characters, would probably even confuse your readers. They'd start to wonder who the main characters are, or just get annoyed at you, the writer, for spending too much time away from their favorite characters. Depending on the number of secondary characters you have, it's not even possible to do it - you'd end up with a book where they main character only appears in one fifth of the book if you have 5 characters - not an unreasonable amount for a fantasy novel. Just follow your gut feeling when writing the first draft. Then when you're rereading, pay special attention to the secondary characters and see if they are believable. Once they become believable to you, you can be satisfied.
Personally I think it helps to try and see if, as a reader, you can imagine the secondary characters to have their own life outside the main story. That can be achieved by very little things, it doesn't mean you have to spell everything out.

E.g. an encounter with a secondary character on a market or a story another secondary character tells of something that happened to the two of them could easily establish a life outside the main story. Similarly, when the main characters leave such a 'facilitator', an indication of what will happen to him could do the trick as well. Especially if that person is not left behind the same way you found him - if something has changed in his life or will change, he's already not as flat as 'Guard1' or 'nameless local blacksmith'. Simply establishing relationships between people helps, too. Who knows, the person you buy your groceries from could be the blacksmith's wife, or the kids you saw throwing stones at a mule could be their children. And of course, if a long time passes between the first and second encounter with a person, it's nice to show some changes, so it doesn't look like all that character did was wait for your main character to return. A helpful soldier could have been killed in the meantime, a young boy and his girlfriend could be man and wife, stuff like that.

Just don't overdo it. Not everyone needs a name, even. Perhaps it helps paging through your favorite fantasy books and checking which characters do, and which don't get mentioned by name.

My understanding was that it all depends on whether or not one is writing an esemble piece or one that features on one lead. In terms of the latter I've always been of the view that supporting characters are there to serve one particular purpose and too much fleshing out clouds that and also distracts from the lead.

^And of course it doesn't have to be either/or.


As for the question, I can't say really. I just play it by ear. If I think something is getting far too wordy or tangled given its importance to the story, I try to cut it down. That's about it.

I'd agree with what's been said so far. Only thing you want to avoid is giving the reader the impression "Oh, he just stuck this guy in here to make a point and now we'll never see him again."

Anyway, the really good characters more often than not end up telling *you* what they're going to do. Sometimes you've got to rein them in, but most times you can just follow along and see where they take you.

Yes. In fact, that is the setting of the story. It takes place shortly after the Book of Enoch, when the evil angels have been defeated, but all their teachings, i.e. witchcraft, spells, are still rampant.

I dunno whether a story has ever been done during this time period, and since I have very little source material from that time period with movies, bokks, etc, I can make it up as I go.

I do a lot of first person stuff, and tend to develop out the secondary characters in terms of plot points regardless of what is going on with the main character - this gives a sense of reality to the story. This gives the focus on the same character, but avoid solipsism - I want the story environment to be living and breathing, even if that means sometimes major events happen off screen - hell, that's how things happen in real life. Especially when you are tyring to establish suspension of disbeleif in a fantasy or science fiction setting.

As far as personal development, no, not all characters have to develop - hell, sometimes the lack of development of a secondary character compared to others can be part of the personal relationships.

Write about life. Especially if you are in a fantastic story.

I don't claim any expertise on the subject, but I don't think ANY of your characters HAVE to show growth or development. Some of them may, all of them may, or none of them, depending on what kind of story you're telling.

In the book "Structuring Your Novel" by Robert Meredith and John Fitzgerald, the authors assert that there are two basic constructions for a novel: a plot or a storyline (of course, a complex work might feature both in varying quantities). Here is the difference:

"In a novel with a plot the emphasis is on events (things that happen), and the protgonist emerges from the novel with his character relatively unchanged from what it was in the beginning." The authors cite Tom Jones and The Spy Who Came in from the Cold as examples of novels where the main characters are mainly unchanged.

"In a novel with a story line the emphasis is on character, and the protagonist always emerges from the novel with his character different than it was in the beginning of the novel because of character development or character disintegration." They cite Madame Bovary and From Here to Eternity as examples where the main character is changed by experience.

Sounds interesting. Angels with flaming swords rock.

Do the secondary characters provide any of the protagonist's needs? Are they good sources of advice? Do they provide insight into the protagonist's soul? Are they comical sidekicks? Do any of them have a secret or a hidden purpose? Do any of them have a connection to the events that is not obvious from the outset? Do any of them have specific wants or needs apart from the protagonist's?

You might first consider what kind of outlook a people who have been expelled from Paradise might have. Are they despondent over what they've lost? Are they angry at God? Do they curse the name of Adam? What would they do to get back into Eden? Make a deal with the devil? If it's before the Flood, they must be--as a people--fairly degenerate. Enough so that God is willing to wipe them out. Perhaps your protagonists see the immorality around them, sense the coming retribution?

Enough to make them believable and sympathetic. Stop when you've done that. Remember that the story is not about them.

To take an example everyone knows, consider Marcus Brody in Raiders of the Lost Ark: he only gets--what?--five minutes of screen time and maybe twenty lines of dialogue, but he seems a most adequately drawn secondary character. You learn a lot about him in that time, though, and are even left with some questions about him afterwards. You get a sense of his humor ("Good God!" "Yes, that's just what the Hebrews thought!") and--desk-bound intellectual that he seems--that he has an awareness of the true power of the ark which Indy dismisses as "the Boogeyman." It helps that Denholm Eliot played him, of course, but there was enough in the script for the actor to work with.

The biggest problem is going to be getting details right - there's basically no civilization then. You have to think through how they did EVERYTHING - they didn't even have forks, LOL. And of course getting the mindset of the people of the Bible correct is also going to be difficult - its a different way of thinking than we are used to. Its a very challenging story you are trying to tell!

Garamet's got it right. If you know who the character is in your own head, they pretty much tell you what they're about. You just write it down.

since civilization was wiped out and all traces of it get washed down to god knows where, you can essentially do anything you want. if you want to have a city with cars, elevators and all the conveniences of modern man you can, because the flood is essentially one giant reset button pushed by god.

I would envision a society of competing ideals: one, a group of cynical hedonists who realize that humanity has forever been denied paradise; the other (probably much smaller) group seeks to reclaim paradise. But how...?

Building a tower to heaven?

Hmm..I am tempted to post the story I have so far here, but I am having a ton of trouble picking out a main character name. He is pretty much just an average guy, but carries one of those gigantic swords like those seen in Final Fantasy video games. I need a heroic name that has the same ring to it as the other characters.

You will see something from me shortly.....

Hmmm...

Some pre-Flood names from the OT: Kanen, Jared, Lamech, Japheth, Canaan.

And some post-Flood names: Erech, Elam, Aram, Abimael, Peleg, Joktan, Hadaram.

(Most of these are names mentioned in the chronicling of ancestors and don't have much of a role in the Bible itself.)

Jared's a good name for a young protagonist. I kinda like Hadaram or Lamech for antagonists. And Abimael sounds like a great warrior's name to me...

Ok, I've written up a backstory to my main story. I haven't creativly written anything since early jr. high school, but I just hope it isn't bad enough that it actually sucks. I'll add the character descriptions when I have them sorted out, but I just wanted to give the readers here a bit of background on where my story takes place and what has transpired.
*takes deep breath*
Here it is:

After the fall from grace through Adam and Eve, mankind spread out through the world. Because of sin, the world did not yield to mankind as it had before. The ground neither yielded its fruit by itself, and the animals that were to serve man no longer obeyed them. It was not long before the great lizards and vicious animals started to devour man for food.

The Almighty saw this, and had mercy, that man should live, and not die. So he sent down angels from heaven, the Children of Heaven, to show man the ways of survival. The Watchers, as they were called, educated man in the martial arts, the crafting of bronze, the making of weapons for defense, the manufacturing of medicines, and the planting of seeds in the ground. And it was good....for a time.

And it came to pass that mankind multiplied because of the knowledge taught by the Watchers. And they prospered, and bore beautiful daughters. Then the Watchers, jealous of the place that the Almighty had given them to serve mankind, lusted after the daughters of men. They said to one another, "Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children." On that day, the Watchers and their leader, the great Archangel Incubus, the chief of the Watchers, descended from Mount Hermon, and became like unto man.

And together, they took to themselves wives, some five, some ten, some tenfold. And they began to defile themselves with the women. And the Watchers taught the women charms, and spells, and sorceries. And they were known as Sirens, for they had knowledge of the elements of fire, and water, and ice, and wind, and earth, and thunder, and all kinds of evil under the sun. And some Watchers taught astrology, and some enchantments, and some necromancy, and the signs of the Earth and the stars, and the secrets of Heaven were loosed under the sun.

And it came to pass that the women became pregnant, and bore children that became great giants. The giants enslaved mankind, and made man to serve them, to bring them food and to do all manner of wickedness in the presence of the Almighty. And the giants were known as the Nephalim, and became great men of renown in the days of old. And these are the names of their kind: Cronus, Hyperion, Prometheus, Atlas, Oceanus, Uranus among many others. The Nephalim did all manner of evil against the Earth, and began to defile themselves with birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and those also bore children unto them, abominations that walked the earth whom were neither man nor beast.

And when man could no longer sustain them, the giants turned on man and devoured humans, and ate their flesh and drank their blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven. . . .

And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: "The cries of mankind hath reached up to the gates of heaven.

And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High." And they said to the Lord of the ages: "Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory standeth unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou, and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Incubus hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these."

Then the Almighty said:

My Heart Shall Not Always Strive With Mankind, For Those Things Which Were Bound In Heaven Hath Been Loosed On Earth, And Great Wickedness Hath Been Thrust Upon The Inhabitants Of The World. I Will Destroy Man Whom I Have Created From The Face Of The Earth, Both Man, And Beast, And The Creeping Thing, And The Fowls Of The Air; For It Repenteth Me That I Have Made Them. Yet My Mercy Will Dwell For A Time.

Take Ten Thousand Angels, And Descend Onto The Earth, To Do Battle With Incubus And His Followers, And Bind Him, So That He May Face The Day Of Judgement. And Bind Appolyon Inside The Earth, Until I Bring Judgement Upon It. But To Incubus And His Children, And Appolyon And His Children, Do No Harm, For They Are Of The Earth And Not Of Heaven.

I, The Almighty, Have Chosen Seven Righteous Servents That Have Neither Defiled Themselves With Evil Nor Given Themselves Over To Fornication With The Abominations Which Walk The Earth. To Them Give The Seven Swords Of Serephs, From Which They Will Use To Purge The Earth Of All Unrighteous And Unnatural Creation.

Then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel took unto them ten thousand angels, and descended upon the earth. And the followers of the Almighty did battle with the followers of Incubus, and the followers of Incubus did wage war against the followers of Michael, and there was much violence on the earth. And Michael did prevail, and bound Incubus, and threw him into Tartarus, to await the Day of Judgement. And Gabriel bound Appolyon inside the earth, to await the Seventh Day.

And after these things Michael the Archangel gave the Almighty's seven righteous servents the Swords of the Sereph, to cleanse the world of the abominations, and the desolations, and the witchcrafts, and to destroy the Nephalim.

To St. Alexander a Sword
To St. Markus a Sword
To St. Vincent a Sword
To St. Felix a Sword
To St. Titus a Sword
To St. Malfor a Sword
To St. Richard a Sword

And the Servants went fourth, and did battle with the Nephalim, and the Sirens, and the Abominations who were neither man nor beast, and there was great distress on the earth, and it was filled with much violence, more than any seen by mankind since then. And the Servants did overcome the Nephalim and freed man from them. And many Nephalim fled to the north, to the land of fire and ash.

And it came to pass that Darius, St. Malfor, whom the Almighty chose, grew mightier than the others. And thought within his own heart: "Who will rule the kingdom of mankind after the Nephalim?" And he crowned himself as king over all, and exalted himself above the Almighty. Then the other servants saw that St. Malfor was wicked in his ways, and hastened to do battle with him before he could consume the entire earth with his wickedness.

A great war again dawned upon the sons of men. And blood was spilt once more. And battle raged for forty years, until St. Malfor and his followers were slain.

And St. Alexander fell.
And St. Markus fell.
And St. Felix fell.
And St. Richard fell.

And when the battles had been fought, and there was peace upon the earth, behold, St. Vincent and St. Titus said amongst themselves, "Who shall carry the Seven Swords of the Serephs that the angels in heaven did give to us, to slay the Nephalim, and to purge the land of evil? For they are great swords, able to destroy creation and to bring both peace and ruin upon the world." The Servants of the Almighty held counsel forty days and forty nights to be in agreement to the fate of the Seven Swords.

At the end of the forty days and forty nights, the servants decreed throughout the kingdom: "Let no man touch the great swords of the angels in heaven, wherewith they may destroy the earth and all who live under it. Let their names be forgotten from henceforth, and let no man speaketh their name, lest they bring a curse upon mankind.

And with that, the two servants gave the swords to the high priests, that they may hide them, and tell no man.

And it came to pass, that the high priests travelled the earth and hid the swords from the sight of man. Yet they feared, for some would fall into temptation and again plunge mankind into ruin.

Then Zimri, the chief among them whom had fought for the Almighty against the Nephalim, persuaded the others to give of their lives that they may protect man from the seven swords and the destuction they would bring to the earth. And when the great swords were hidden, Zimri and the high priests partook of venom, and died, so they might keep the secrets of the seven swords.

It is said that no many knows the whereabouts of the Seven Swords.

End Of Summary

*whew*

So this is where my main story BEGINS. Josephus is the largest and most prosperous city in the world, and there has been peace on earth for close to a generation.

St. Titus who built the great city of Josephus, became King Titus of Josephus, and St. Vincent became his friend and consellor as a new age of peace and prosperity dawned upon mankind.

The Nephalim threat to the north continues to grow, but aside from a few skirmishes along bordertowns, the humans far outnumber the Nephalim and Abominations. (The Abominations are known as Beastmen because they are half human and half beast.) There are many types of beastmen, but they include Ratmen (Ratsputans ), Merma (Mermaids and Mermen), Vampires, Werewolves, Minotaurs, Centaurs, Scaleens (lizardmen) and various others, but those are the main ones. The Nephalim also mated with the great lizards (dinosaurs!) which gave birth to dragons, mystical creatures with great magic powers.

Great lizards? Meaning dinosaurs? Cool. (Although--I'm sure you're aware--in the orthodox version of history, people and dinosaurs not only never co-existed, they were separated by about 60,000,000 years.) But stories involving gods need not stick to the orthodox. Onward...

This Almighty is a little less like the biblical Yahweh and a little more like the Greek god Prometheus. But there's always a downside to the gods granting mortals knowledge...

Renegade angels? Very interesting. And "Incubus" is a name full of foreshadowing...

Magic! Sorcery! Worldly angels! And dinosaurs! I'm liking it so far...

The Hebrew and Greek traditions just collided. The titans are the Nephalim. Spendid, splendid...

"Flanders to God, Flanders to God..."

"Say, Big G, those humans are really having a rough time..."

Angels against angels and titans!

"We're on a mission from God."

Anachronism alert! Anachronism alert! Roman, Christian, and Anglo-Saxon traditions springing up in the Hebrew antedilluvian/cretaceous period! All hands to battle stations...

The Servants whooped some ass...

Darius: a good riff on the Persian king of the same name; and Malfor is an ominous name if ever there was one...

Costly victory. Of the six "good" servants, only two survive the forty years of war...

Don't tell me: Beowulf!

Ah...a hidden treasure of incredible power. Calling Dr. Jones...

Except for this one guy...

Your special effects budget is already north of $400 million and climbing.

But then a crisis appears. And the only hope for mankind is...THE SWORDS OF THE SERAPH!!!!

Or, perhaps: an ancient evil possesses the seven swords of the Seraph and no one can stop the end of all mankind...except...



Interesting universe you've created there. Lots of concepts from several traditions. I'm not sure why the Almighty is cleansing the earth before he's going to destroy it, though...maybe those who cleanse it will be spared?

The Almighty wanted humanity to survive, and they were on the verge of extinction because of the bad angels.

But many of the hidden secrets of the universe were already revealed to man, including many forms of witchcraft - and mankind stopped short of wiping out all the Nephalims when Darius decided to exert his rule. Because the Nephalim were allowed to live, they will come back again to destroy humanity.

The second time this mess happens, the Almighty decides to wipe the earth completely clean, but only spares one family - Noah and his sons.

So yeah, the main story takes place between the period of peace and Noah's Ark. Pretty much anything can happen, because the flood will kill everything anyways.

I've always assumed the two stories/myths (as you like) had related origins in the midsts of the past.

Certainly if I were writing this story I would procede from that assumption.

How about Lance Stormcannon?

Could be, although I believe the Greek language is Indo-European while Hebrew is Afro-Asiatic. If they had some common cultural root, it would probably precede the development of spoken language. Still, the Philistines were Greek (probably displaced as a consequence of power shifts arising from the Trojan War), so their interaction with the Hebrews (not long before the Hebrew Bible was first written) may very well have influenced Hebrew perceptions (and vice versa). (Of course, the Greek influence on Christianity--which arose in a thoroughly Hellenized world--is very, very strong.)

It would indeed be interesting if it turned out the Zeus (or Ouranos or Chaos) and Yahweh were the same deity. But can you imagine two more dissimilar demigods as Hercules (actually Herakles for the Greeks) and Jesus?

Hmmm, actually it DOES fit the style of my other character names. I might use it as a placeholder until I find a new name.

Is this name your invention?

By the way, Lance. I was at a PC Cafe in Red Deer tonight and I noticed a PC in there had Wordforge on it when I walked in, so I told the guy I wanted to rent that computer, and when I checked, you were on it. It was pretty cool to actually nearly (almost) meet another board member.

Oh, and yeah, I logged out for you.

^Y'know, there's a story there.

Huh? You see a story where?

^Two ships passing kind of thing. Two characters who inhabit the same little bit of geography - totally different personalities and backgrounds, some similar interests, who have one point of contact in common - an online BBS.

And the timing. What were the odds that you'd walk into that PC Cafe at that precise moment, glance at that precise computer, and see the Wordforge screen? Backtrack and ask what the odds were that Lance would walk away without logging off.

Going forward, will you guys ever meet, or will you always just miss each other? Kind of a male bonding version of You've Got Mail. Maybe you'll both be pursuing the same girl. Maybe you'll find out you knew each other in high school. Maybe you're both left-handed. Maybe you've both been in touch with aliens.

Many possibilities.