Elim Garak

WOOT!

I actually have something to do in here!

If someone isn't welcome here, show them the door. The staff having and wanting a tool that is used to fuck around with and troll members does not make the staff look good...no matter how sparingly you intend to use it. Things change...rules created for just Enterpriser became rules for everyone soon enough and that kind of creep can happen anywhere.

It's the principal of the thing and not something many people here would want potentially hanging over their heads. You really think this hasn't come up before with other owners?? There is good reason it wasn't implemented before...this is a board that wants as little authority and power in it's staff as humanly possible and something like this will enrage some people. You'll see...unless so many people are gone now that cared that what's left will be apathetic.

I guess we will see. I know I don't like it one bit and I doubt I will be alone in that opinion.

Those who would become enraged will always find other reasons to be enraged, whether valid or not. The discourage tool has been used for one troll who has made account after account in order to sidestep a ban, and has posted all kinds of shit, including porn spam. This tool can be used to effectively deal with the problem. This tool makes it possible for staff to take care of other things instead of babysitting a troll who is here only to disrupt the board. Banning doesn't always solve the problem, as we've seen several times already. This is merely one more tool to make it harder on banned troll duals to disrupt the board. It is that simple. It really is that simple. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

You don't have to like it, but then, you don't have to deal with assholes who make dual accounts in order to post tubgirl porn all over the board for shits and giggles.

That's rich for Tamar to accuse staff of trolling a user

Seriously, there is nobody here less qualified to make such a judgment. And unlike her repeated trolling of multiple users when she was on staff, this isn't trolling at all. It's a disciplinary tool. Are we to consider warnings and bans to be trolling, too?

Both, really.

Yes, this discussion guarantees that this case will be public, but that won't stop people from wondering if it's being used other times.

Also, if I understand right, the Discourage tool involves not just flood control, but simulated errors and artificially induced slowness. If the goal is to slow him down the next time he decides he's not getting enough attention and goes on a porn spam spree, that's exactly what flood control is intended for, and I support using it on somebody with his track record. The other stuff is just intended to fuck with someone and get them to go away without having to actually stand behind a ban.

This is gonna be great. An epic in the making and I don't have to deal with it.

I don't like permabanning, doesn't someone the ability to change.

On the other hand, I'm tired of Skrains lame ass trolling followed up by porn spamming. Done that song and dance enough times.

This seems like a good compromise. He knows we don't appreciate it (could be he was taking us letting him come back as condoning his behavior) while also keeping open the door for him to do something beyond troll/spam.

When I trolled it was individually, in the Red Room as a poster only and not as policy against posters. And throw my past in my face all you want...one of the reasons you want to use this is because you think it's "funny". That's trolling and specifically trolling with administrative tools and some would say abusing your position.

And yes, John, I don't have to deal with the shit....however I did deal with it for a decade and somehow managed just fine without a nasty piece of work like "discourage" to troll someone I don't like and do the job for me. This is something Wong would do and I believe has.

If you believe for a minute people are just gonna take your word and trust this isn't being used on a whim you are truly deceiving yourselves. Every glitch will have folks wondering if they have been targeted and it matters not how many staff members can check...you will be perceived as plotting in dark rooms against everyone no matter how ludicrous that is.

Bans are clean and unambiguous. You don't see the hypocrisy in asking people not to troll and then setting the software to harass posters who troll? And this "leaving the door open for real contribution" is bullshit...it's called discourage for a reason...it will fuck with everything he does to encourage him to leave, not stay and be better. The software won't know if it's a good post or not and to let him post the good ones. It will do all it can to make him want to leave.

It's your decisions of course. I am giving advice because I believe that is the point of us past Admins retaining access. Don't be surprised if you get a bunch of angry people screaming at you. But maybe you'll be lucky...maybe those who are left are apathetic enough to not care and I'll be wrong. I do know that every other time the idea of using this came up it was not something people approved of.

We'll see.

Flood control alone does this far better and cleaner than something like discourage.

You keep using apathy as a reason why they might accept it. Did you ever consider that maybe they'll like the idea of troll duals not spamming the board with porn? Your choices are anger and apathy. I think that says more about your position than it does about theirs, Tamar. Yes, we'll see, but I'm not seeing it as an experiment, I'm seeing it as a way to keep the board secure and free of disruption. To put it another way, people aren't leaving because there aren't enough trolls posting scat porn.

Flood control stops the porn problem cold without all the nasty aspects of discourage. It's very hard to disrupt anything if you can only post once every half-hour or hour. As he behaves you shorten the time. No muss, fuss or ambiguity.

Of course, it isn't as funny.

Yes, because no one would ever laugh at a troll. You certainly never did, right?

The point and problem is the notion of trolling posters under the guise of punishment and policy...not trolling in general and I think that is apparent and continuing to play dumb about it to reference my past as if it has any relevance here at all is intellectually bankrupt. Staff should absolutely not be trolling in any way while carrying out staff duties like punishing someone. The point was allowing staff to troll in the Red Room was so they could continue to participate in discussions like anyone else..not this sort of thing.

Plenty of people who love a good troll will still have a problem with it when it's a policy and being used by people in charge as a punishment. You want to pretend there is no difference but you know there is. This is a BBS where people got angry and called it abuse of power when an Admin went on a Pos-Rep spree and gave out random amounts of posrep to everyone around just for fun.

And we'll just keep ignoring the fact that flood control will take care of the problem just as well without the crap because the fact is that you guys simply want to fuck around with him because you don't like him. Some of you very people who always insisted staff should be better than everyone else until you were staff yourselves. Fine, troll him all you want in the Red Room like everyone else, don't do shitty things to his account so he can't function here. Ban him or flood control him. That other crap isn't and shouldn't be the WF way.

I'm not trolling. This is punishment. That it might be entertaining for some is secondary. I am using a legitimate tool, part of a security and maintenance suite that comes with this software. You don't have to like it, and your input is noted. You can defend a shit troll who has been banned repeatedly all you want, but it doesn't change that he is still a shit troll who has been banned repeatedly.

I will take what measures I need to ensure he does not disrupt this board. I do not use the tool lightly, and I sure as hell don't use it on accounts in good standing. Take whatever issue with that you want, but it's not your decision, and it's not your job to keep the board running smoothly. Flood control might be effective on its own, but it might not. All flood control does is slow someone down. It does not make it difficult for them to post images, links, and disrupt the board. It only slows them down. If I make flood control last, say, 2 minutes, all he needs to do is post once or twice, using the nastiest imagery and video he can find. Maybe once in each forum, in heavily populated threads.

It's better to be smart and to use a combination of methods to cause as much disruption as possible, in order to prevent further abuse, or at the very least, to severely hamper it.

He is a banned dual. He will be discouraged from posting here as a banned dual. No member of this board should have any concern that this tool will be used against them, unless they become banned duals who decide to take a similar path.

Your concerns are baseless, as I have been really fucking transparent about what actions I take. What you're suggesting is that I might use this tool against people I might not like. Just say it: You don't trust me.

I've already edited the previous post enough to add things, so I'll just make a new post on this one.

Just something else to consider: I posted, in this thread, that I had put his IP on discourage. I said it casually, with full knowledge that unless there's very private information (which is redacted), all of this will see the Shelter Release thread. If I really wanted to fuck around with people I didn't like, I would have kept silent. You realize that I don't have to say anything about the inner workings of this board. As long as shit is maintained, and the board runs smoothly, I could refer to everything as elf magic, and leave it at that. Instead, I disclose changes I make, I inform people of what I'm doing. The only information that stays private is the specific security features and details of the software, and for good reason.

In short, if you think I'm going to hide away information just to have some kind of leverage over other members, you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't play that kind of game. I don't play games at all. Not when it comes to the smooth operation of this board, and the well-being of the community as a whole.

You can quit trolling now, too. Your concerns in this thread are the equivalent of Bernie Madoff finger wagging someone who made a joke about printing their own money. So let's not kid ourselves. 'kay?

Let's be fucking clear.

I am not nor have I ever defended that shitbag.

Nor am I fucking trolling. You'll know I'm trolling if photographs of your embarrassing actions at a Brony convention turn up on Google and find their way here. That's my niche. Hell, I haven't trolled in ages and some people just can't see anything else even though when I did troll it was on rare, far and few between occasions.

I am trying to get through to you after ten years of being staff on this board the kind of fight you may have on your hands doing this. I never said you would do any of the things I mentioned...I said that there are people here who are paranoid about authority in any form who will assume it can and will happen and will start a shitstorm because of it. I also know because various versions of this sort of thing has come up in the past and even members of staff at the time had issue with it and put an end to it before it was ever instituted. VB had a version of it too. It was never used because of that.

Even Lanzman is trying to give you a clue that this by it's very nature will be contentious. I suppose he's trolling you too and not because we have experience with the way this board tends to overreact to things of this nature.

Feel free to ignore us and do what you want but if it blows up in your face, don't say we didn't try to warn you.

Well of course there will be a shitstorm, whether out of anger by some, or for fun by others. I expect that. This is Wordforge; changing a logo can result in people metaphorically flipping tables as a response. That's nothing new. I admin 3 boards right now, and each board has its own style and sense of community. Wordforge is no different in that regard.

Should have been left at a simple outright ban, imo.

Simple outright bans don't work, as we've already seen. This method makes it far harder for him to even register, let alone cause trouble.

Kind of puts lie to the excuse we need this so we can give him another chance over time.

All this will do is torture someone until they give up and go away. Nothing more and nothing less.

OMG, we're torturing him! Well that line pretty much proves what we already knew. Nice troll Tamar, see you again in a few months.

I am not fucking trolling no matter how much you are dying to dismiss me.

When the board has problems normally it is a frustrating, angering situation that if you haven't noticed causes a great deal of complaining and moaning in the Help Desk along with demands that it be fixed. While it's not torture in the waterboarding sense...and no normal person would be assuming that is what I meant...the entire point of the program is to drive someone batshit until they leave. Do you think this is a lovely, pleasant experience for the recipient?

I don't know why you guys are latched on to this idea like a shark with a bloody corpse but it is unnecessary and not something a board built to be a haven from speech oppression and being treated like crap by an uncaring, authoritarian staff should be implementing. Nor will most people here want it implemented.

Just something to try. If it works, great, if not, so much for that. But I can't for the life of me see how passively discouraging somebody from being here is trolling. Haven't seen any articulation of that which goes beyond stating it as an obvious fact (which it isn't).

It's not passive. Faking board malfunctions with the aim of frustrating somebody to the point of leaving is active; it just happens to also be a system that allows the administrator to PRETEND to be passive.

Releasing this since it's been a week and most of the discussion moved to the open Help Desk thread.

That is totally unfair. I need at least a month more of posting to start some shit. A few things though:
1. It is a pretty shitty tactic, and before you became an owner, you just might have been stirring some shit over it yourself.
2. No one has still yet managed to explain why this is a simpler and easier, and more importantly, a more mature action then just permabanning.
3. Not too lon.....well, yeah, it was a while ago, but for the longest time Cass, some others, and almost the entire staff here labeled you a shit stirrer and a troll every time you made a post. Remember your multiple threads on TK asking if you were banned? So let's not go slinging that accusation too hard, ok?

Was a joke. And there's nothing wrong with a bit of shit stirring.

I don't know the poster, don't care if he is banned or not. I just think it is much simpler and a much more adult action for you, if when he tries to log on he gets some boilerplate informing him that he is banned as opposed to giving him pseudo glitches and errors. And maybe more importantly for you all, no threads in the HD crying about it.

I can think of a few of the current owners and staff who just might be screaming blue murder over this tactic if it had been available and used by Elwood, Borgs, or Lissandra.

Discourage acts as a more capable fish net. It's not about teasing, it's about trapping. It's more flexible than IP ban (which has failed many times already), and the setting on the system is at maximum, which means no access to search, chat, or any other basic board services. I have explained this several times already. Maturity also means being informed on the issue before condemning it.

There is so much noise surrounding the signal, that people are missing what I have already said, or they're just ignoring it in favor of other theories. That, too, is a possibility.