Europe: The Invisible Superpower

Economics alone can't make a superpower.

No, but a powerful army can't operate without it.

Dude, I hope someone makes a better spaceship. I don't care what country they are as long as we don't forget this big old void we're sitting in.

It's much more comfortable to have somebody else do it for us - and be happy about it, too, because they can claim empire! empire!

Why the fuck should we be afraid of Russia? Why the fuck should we be afraid of anyone? Look at a map. What do you think can happen? I wouldn't even consider Russia much of a threat if it went imperialist tomorrow - they wouldn't pick the hardest enemy.

I'm very glad that we don't waste incredible amounts of money on a war machine. What we have is quite enough. More would only mean that it would need a war every few years, like America. And if nothing comes along we'd start invading random countries just for the heck of it. No thanks.

I like how you're insisting that the US war budget is for 'defense'

So you're saying that a strong military by default also suggests a strong economy.

Then what exactly are you arguing here:

Not neccessarily, but is often the case. Even though Saddam had the third largest military, his people often suffered from squalid conditions and in poverty.

No, a military alone does not make a superpower. It takes a strong ecomic system working in tandem with a strong military to be a world superpower.

I'd be wary of any country that finds it's neighbors defensive measures so offensive.

Indeed...so essentially you just defeated your own assertion from post #28

Honey, I'd find that ridiculous 'missile shield' offensive too. The Czechs and Polish could simply quit being Washington's lackeys and start thinking for themselves. Now that would be progress.

Sweet dreams. The EU's economy is about the size of the U.S.'s, but with 200 million more people to share in it. While Europe does have some world-leading industry, for the most part, it is economically far behind America. Care to trade per capita GDPs with someone from Greece? What's your favorite French product? Care to name a Spanish car brand?

So, Europe has finally managed to build an aircraft bigger than the ones we built in the 1960s. Wonderful! It's too bad it isn't going to sell because Airbus has misjudged the market. Meanwhile, Boeing collects many orders for its new jet (which is on time). Incidentally, Russia built the biggest production airplane ever...would you say that size of aircraft is any guarantee of national success?

Call me when it actually flies. By the way, refresh my memory: what's the name of the first man the Europeans launched into space on a European rocket?

I'll give Europe the nod on big science, but how does that translate into anything meaningful for the man on the street? Does someone in Botswana think "I must live in Europe! They have the most current high energy physics research facilities on the planet!"

Yep. And they've only managed to do it twenty to thirty years later...using technology developed by the pioneers.

That would explain why so many Americans are moving to Europe! Wait...it's the other way around?

Humility is for the humiliated. I prefer we not be like the rest of the world in that respect.

Welcome to the cold war. It's been some time, my friend

No, since the point I was trying to make is that a large military alone is not the sign of a super power. China also fits in this category.

And goddammit, why does it feel so wrong to agree with Enty even in principle

Should "thinking for themselves" be read as "thinking like Europeans" :flow2:

Because if you agree with him, you get to pretend for a minute you're as good as Americans.

Well, "keeping the great hordes of unwashed peoples in line" is both too big a mouthful and bad public relations.

Where's North Korea fit?

They reap the benefits too... and between Soviet stalinism and American imperial dreams the EU is a pretty good choice IMHO.

I don't have imperial dreams.

It saddens me that my leaders do.

America has imperial dreams? :flow2:

If that were really true, we'd own much of Earth and all of the moon.

And we'd have nuked Afghanistan and killed every man woman and child in Iraq.

But we don't follow the European model. We are much more civilized.

Oo! Oo! I take back what I said. We should be imperial about the Moon!

As demonstrated by trying to 'own' a powerless, starving third world shithole like Iraq

I don't know. I don't have the info on their economics or military to compare.

Funny, I see it as a Czech and Polish matter and take it no further than that.

Merely owning Iraq, if that were our only concern, would be much easier than stabilizing it.

you know, just looking at a map, you'd think Europe ought to be the place with the huge army and America the place which promotes economics over warmongering.

Europe is much closer to potentially hostile countries than we are. Pragmatically, who does America have to worry about? Canada and Mexico?

A valid point, but we had to maintain our military because the Huns can't be trusted with snappy uniforms and guns.