FF bored in Saturday detention

Um, Kirk was pretty hands on in everything.
Didn't hear no complaining then.

A device so common that there's an entire TV Tropes page about it.

It's interesting that only sometimes does this put a bug up certain people's asses.

I'm sure there's an explanation. If only I could put my finger on it ...

But wait, there's more!

"The alternative factor", is an unpopular episode, but Kirk literally saves the whole universe in that one.
Sisko saves Kirk in "trials and tribbleations", so he saved the guy who saved the universe.
Picard saves all life in the alpha quadrant in "all good things...".
Archer saves the Earth from the Xindi superweapon, so that Kirk can be born, so he can save the universe.

Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Archer are all in their way "the most important person in the universe".
I can't find a path to Janeway off the top of my head, but it must be there.

Superhero Trek protagonists are a tradition going all the way back.

Got it!
Janeway separates Seven from the collective, and Seven saves humanity from assimilation in "Dark Frontier", "Endgame", and "Picard".
Also, the super-Krenim in "Year Of Hell", were a galaxy-wide threat.

Damn. Seriously? Is science fiction. It’s better than yet another version of Friends or Honeymooners, ffs.
As for Burnham does everything, uhm, that’s because she’s the main character. That’s what main characters do. They do everything because they are the MAIN character. The story is literally all about the main character. Kirk did everything. Tony Stark did everything. John McClain did everything.
Do you not like it because the main character is a woman or because she’s black?

Oh, I noticed something on DS9 a couple nights ago.

It's the one where Sisko has the vision of his mom, and he goes back to Earth to talk to his dad at the Cajun restaurant.
There's a scene towards the end where Sisko takes out the trash!
Literally! Puts it in a bag, and puts it in a barrel!
That means Earth has garbage men.
Garbage men!
In a civilization that can just de-replicate all waste!
So...I'm left head-scratching over....is the garbage truck a mobile de-replicator, or is it a regular trash truck that takes it to a de-replicating transfer station?
How many needless steps are they adding to this?

The have those astromech droids we saw in Discovery taking the trash.

Well, both, obviously.

that ship has sailed, and...

I guess I didn’t realize you were “that guy”

Maybe it's material for compost since it's garbage from a kitchen? Sisko's dad was able to procure real live tube grubs for Nog, so presumably there were the other ingredients in the restaurant that were real and not replicated.

What, a racist/sexist guy? I'm not. I like to think I'm not, anyway. I agree that main protagonists of Trek shows have been awfully proficient at saving the universe--I will concede that point. I guess my complaint is that unlike Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway, Burnham is a woefully underwritten (and badly written) protagonist. Only Archer was worse. It's easy to believe Kirk et al. could save the universe and be loved and respected by all. Burnham just seems like kind of a dope. Not her fault or the actor's fault, just insanely bad writing.

IMHO. YMMV. OK?

Totally. But, you know ... Red Room. If you don't want your opinions challenged ... and all ...

But, I didn't like any part of Lord of the Rings series. So, bash me there ...

I don't mind having my opinions challenged. I'm just saying I'm not coming from a racist/sexist perspective.

There are differences between the previous Star Trek series' protagonists and Discovery. DSC is probably most similar to TOS in that the lead is generally involved in the A plot, whereas in TNG, DS9, VOY and even ENT multiple shows a season focused on characters other than the captain. Granted, DSC has less episodes and therefore less time to tell the story it wants to tell, but most episodes and both seasons (too early to tell with S3) revolve around Burnham to a ridiculous degree. Fine, yes, she's the protagonist. But the show has basically ignored its supporting cast in favor of focusing on Burnham. Whatever, if that's what some people like, fine. But others prefer a more ensemble-style Trek. Do I want a TNG clone? No. But why have all these interesting characters and do practically nothing with them? Maybe they'll turn this around in S3. I don't know.

It has nothing to do with the fact SMG is black and a woman. Who gives a shit? I'm sure there are people who do, but fuck them. It just seems like Discovery fans are of two schools of thought when it comes to people criticizing the show: they're either bigoted or they want a TNG clone. Judging the show harshly on its own lack of merit is possible.

Plus I still watch the damn thing.

Kirk was absolutely overplayed as a hero, but he did not save the universe every single week. The future of existence did not routinely hinge on him and him alone out of quadrillions of beings.

Most episodes revolved around the crew encountering the inhabitants of a single colony, or an odd alien which was primarily a threat to them and them alone.

He was fallible, arguably a total fuck up at times, and frequently required Spock or McCoy to tell him to wind his neck in and get with the program.

If any captain were too perfect it was Picard who, in my view, wasn't a character at all. People talk about Janeway being all over the place in terms of the writing but I disagree. She was rewriting the book every episode because she had to. There's no protocol for being adrift on the other side of the galaxy and she had to improvise A LOT.

Picard, on the other hand, only worked because of Patrick Stewart's charisma. I never felt I knew him, could empathise with him. He was a paragon, eloquence made flesh, a vessel for whatever ideals were being espoused that week and few actors could have truly carried that off. He was a fantasy of human perfection, the embodiment of TNG's supposedly more evolved but in truth merely arrogant future.

There's a reason he never played poker with the others.

Whilst by contrast you'll never hear me bad mouthing Burnham as a "Mary Sue" (like many here I remember that term being used very differently) I do find the small universe that has developed in Trek to be tiresome and the tendency for one small group or individual to be pivotal to every major event doesn't help.

At first I was very pro DIS, arguing it was a very strong first season, but it just hasn't had the same resonance for me. I don't ever get the temptation to sit and do a rewatch or pick out an episode as I do with the others.

I've not mustered the desire to watch S3 yet, in fact when I saw the adverts I groaned inside just a little because it seems just a little like a chore.


If she's anything Burnham's just undeveloped, both in terms of character realisation and in universe. She's hard to care about and well, a wee bit dull, especially next to Tilly (who was just the most awesome person ever to grace a TV screen), Saru, Lorca, either Georgiou, various Klingons (who I was actually impressed by).

Rather than being controversial I just think she's a non event, a bland character who somehow seems to perpetually be finding yet another aspect of her own manifest destiny.

Georgiou would have been a far better protagonist with the mentoring relationship being explored slowly over the long term, a gradual transition of the mantle from a noble Picardesque explorer to someone finding her place as a human who doesn't yet understand what that means for her.

Trek has form for this, with Spock being an outsider in two worlds, Data's exploration of humanity, Worf exploring his dual heritage, Seven's lost childhood, etc. Characters finding their identity is a Trek TV staple.

Saving the universe is for movies.

Ensemble casting and storytelling are more preferable to me as well. I see what you're saying. But ..., I guess the incels (hey, they grabbed that name and took it for themselves. not my fault) have basically bullied and attempted to silence anything and everything female in movies and multi-media. So, when women go on the defense, we're just reacting to those who have made their voices loudest.

You sure nailed that one!

And I say that despite having liked TNG more or less. But I found it's "everything is going to be okay, and no matter how awful or evil someone appears, if we can only talk to them and understand them we'll end up getting along fine" philosophy to be childishly naive.

But even though I was a huge fan of TOS from the first season of the first run (I even wrote a letter to NBC as part of the campaign to prevent it from being cancelled), there were things I didn't like about TOS, either. But I'm just not someone to nitpick all the details. Sometimes I just swallow the inconsistencies and enjoy the ride.

From a male pov that becomes very problematic because said incels have poisoned the well.

In attempting to frame misogynistic views in ways which sound, well, not misogynistic they have made certain topics a minefield of potential intellectual or reputational self harm.

We see this projected onto sci fi in the media, for instance. That many faux arguments have been used to attack Star Wars or DSC or Doctor Who under the guise of anything other than the underlying masculine insecurity that it becomes difficult to engage in genuine criticism without being tainted by association.

That actually closes doors to meaningful conversation and it's absolutely a male problem at root.

Back in the 90s, a friend and I were discussing whey Americans have such bad reputations abroad. we came to the conclusion that we allow the worst of us to speak in the loudest voice. Using that same statement, I've argued with Christians, police officers, and white people in general - if you don't want to be painted in the bad light that the "bad ones" are shining, you have to speak up louder against those people.

I know there are decent men out there - there was a shaving cream commercial within the last year or two that attempted to address this. But, once again, were shouted down by the bad ones.

All that needs to happen for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.

Easily done when one can distinguish between the two.

In this context, however, the evil camouflages itself to avoid consequences and sounds remarkably similar to the well intentioned.

When prejudice is expressed in code that code soon becomes the language of prejudice, regardless of how others would use it.

The language of media critique has been co opted in this way, it has become the lingua franca for those who wish to give voice to their prejudice.

We all recognise this, but where does that leave those of us who wish to use those words, that language, without the subtext?

I honestly don't know. Like the other topics touched on this morning, this one may also be out of our ability to resolve in this forum. Just have to accept that what people say is what they mean and not attempt to put words in their mouths.

@Useful Idiot, my apologies if I misunderstood your post.

Actually, I think people thinking like this post is exactly what might save us.

I think the fact that Picard tried to hold himself to these ideals and was distant from the crew is part of how he wasn't perfect.

I've been rewatching TNG and one of the things that occurs to me is how lonely Picard is. He has his breakfasts with Crusher and he occasionally confides in Guinan and Troi. But he just isn't friends with the rest of his crew. He doesn'tlike to be the center of attention. He doesn't like to appear vulnerable or weak.

And in "All Good Things," (which I can't wait for --- the seventh season of TNG this time around is striking me as more painful than the first), he finally comes to a realization that he does not need to set himself apart from the crew.

FWIW, I found Discovery S1 and S2 to be OK and watched it mostly as a Trek completist. S3 has opened up the character of Burnham more and made her more interesting to me. Judging by Trek BBS, which might of course be a bad measuring stick, most people seem to think the show's going in a great direction this season.

Actually, that was T'Pol's wedding to her Vulcan arranged fiancé, not Trip and the show spent the entire fourth season playing Ross & Rachel with them until Berman and Braga ruined even that for the fandom

But hey, at least you know what you like & don't like and don't go outta your way to shit over fans because of it.

Ghost is definitely not Bender in this scenario. Not cool enough.

But who is he?

He's too dumb to be Brian, though "demented and sad, but social" could be used to describe him.

Too normal to be Allison.

Probably not rich enough to be Claire or strong enough to be Andrew.

Well, I was watching the priest, not the couple.

I figure these days there are enough "flavors" of Trek to satisfy just about everyone. I get a little annoyed at those who are "But ya gotta watch Discovery!" or whatever.

No, I don't. Really.

Definitely not Bender. He's got the "socially awkward, never knows when to shut up" thing Brian has. Maybe he's a sixth character who managed to escape detention that week but is usually nabbed for arguing loooong after the topic is over.