Game On in Iraq: Iranian Quds and Militias Suffer a, um, Setback

Maybe he'll clarify but obviously that's bullshit too.

yes I do! I'm not pointing any fingers - I have no skin in that game. I'm just saying the sandbox and the U.S. aren't the only places where unpopular occupations of various levels occur.

You're right.

We took a very long time to start learning lessons in Northern Ireland and we still haven't got it right, which makes it all the more galling we went gallivanting in Iraq in a pathetic attempt to prove our worth as lapdog.

Northern Ireland was a massive influence on public opinions over Iraq and still is, we were so overwhelmingly against it precisely because we knew where it was likely to lead and why it was so wrong. Sadly Blair was either too eager to have a legacy, or appease Bush, who knows? Very possibly he genuinely believed he was doing the right thing, although how he could be so involved in the peace process here and still be under that impression is beyond me.

As for having "skin in the game", I was there the day the Warrington bomb went off. I know people on both sides of the conflict who were beaten, tortured, in one case disembowelled whilst being filmed and the film sent to his family. I can only imagine the experiences Rick might have had, but let's not pretend this is all theoretical for us civilians because guess what?

Civilians don't choose to be there.

They don't get body armour.

They don't get to go home when their tour is over.

They don't have the luxury of missing their kids back home because they're sick to the stomach worrying today might be the day they don't get to school alive after waving them off.

Then they get labelled terrorists when they try to fight back.

Now I'm no fan of the IRA, they did some despicable things (including to people I know) but I do understand why they did what they did. I understand why Iraqi insurgents planted IEDs and took potshots at coalition troops. For that fact alone I refuse to condemn Soleimani's actions in supporting them. Doubtless he did commit genuine acts of terrorism in his life but aiding insurgents against an armed occupation wasn't one of them no matter how many talking heads repeat it on TV.

"I understand why Iraqi insurgents planted IEDs and took potshots at coalition troops. For that fact alone I refuse to condemn Soleimani's actions in supporting them." - spot261

we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point

Yeah, it's just too uncomfortable to really consider what he's saying. It might mean reexamining some fundamental parts of your worldview.

my worldview is just fine. Hope yours is doing well.

Are the peoples you invade ever entitled to fight back, in your head? Or is the only thing for them to do to roll over?

What, you think there should be no resistance when you roll in?

Is it unconstitutional or something?

@oldfella1962 , I'm not sure if it's available in the US, but if you can track down the BBC documentary series 'Spotlight on the troubles - a secret history', you might be able to better understand what @spot261 is saying. Its a fantastic documentary with access to so many unseen sources and accounts. Put together without bias and it does shine a light on some of the dirty deeds done by all parties. Northern Ireland is a complex situation, its not nearly as simple as goodies and baddies.

the (non political) takeaway here is hats/helmets off to the military for being so proactive on screening all the members for possible TBI. That so many have already been returned to duty means much of this is precautionary which is definitely the best practice. The military has learned (and is taking action on) much about TBI in the last twenty years or so mainly because of the sandbox. TBI truly is a "ticking timebomb" in many cases. Losing an arm for example is obvious and can be treated and dealt with. What goes on inside a brain is anybody's guess most of the time so you're never out of the woods.

As for Trump and his "no harm done, no injuries" comment he really jumped the gun on that! Damn all he needed to say was "so far there are no fatalities or obvious injuries reported, but all affected members are being medically screened as I speak". Factual, non-inflammatory, professional with no spin or attitude.

Now this is interesting...

Russian intelligence sources have claimed that Michael D’Andrea, head of CIA operations in Iran and who orchestrated the assassination of Iranian General Qassem Soleimani, was killed in a US spy plane downed yesterday in Ghazni, Afghanistan.

The plane with US Air Force markings reportedly served as the CIA’s mobile command for D’Andrea, who earnt several nicknames including: Ayatollah Mike, the Dark Prince, and the Undertaker. He is one of the most prominent CIA figures in the region, appointed head of the agency’s Iran Mission Centre in 2017. Under his leadership, the agency was perceived to take a more “aggressive stance toward Iran”.

The Taliban claimed to have shot down the plane but have yet to provide evidence, whilst the US has denied the claim but has acknowledged the loss of a Bombardier E-11A plane in central Afghanistan. Graphic images online have already circulated purportedly showing some of the charred remains of those on board.

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Dumbshit thinks the enemy will thank him for invading their country. That is the stupidest mindset about war. You really think the people we invade want us there.

Doubtless that's the line they are fed in training and preparation, that they are liberating the poor Iraqi people who will be ecstatic at their new found freedom. In fairness given that average squaddie isn't supposed to be questioning the reasons for a war it's a simple and convincing line and the fact that people are willing to die for what they are told is a good cause does speak well of them.

It sounds noble if you don't think it through too carefully.

However outside of that bubble the truth of the matter is a whole lot grubbier and less high minded and the invasion really wasn't viewed in that light by most of the world, much less the joyful inhabitants of Iraq who for some reason keep shooting at the troops there and planting bombs. Now the Iraqi government, with full support of the people apparently, have asked for those troops to leave. Nothing could be more clearly stated, but the troops remain.

Not only that but we're told that the people resisting the occupation are murderers, US jurisdiction extends around the globe and to top it all off that an Iranian dignity was in the country "illegally" because he violated a US no fly zone.

But no empire here, of course. Just good guys with guns.

It is what people like @oldfella1962 tell themselves so that they don't see the similarities with past evils. In all honesty, would you really want to open up that box and see what is inside if you were a part of the war machine?

Ayatollah Mike, the Dark Prince, and the Undertaker aren't these characters in WWE fake wrestling?

Anyway Tererun - as for being part of the "war machine" do you pay taxes? Do you? Then welcome to the machine!

And spot261 - "Doubtless that's the line they are fed in training and preparation, that they are liberating the poor Iraqi people who will be ecstatic at their new found freedom."

Doubtless? Oh so you were in my unit, training and preparing? I think I would have remembered that! There was no "why we are here" bullshit and if there was, nobody listens to that. But there was "since we are tasked to be here" training & preparation so we could complete our various tasks & missions and hopefully come back alive and/or in one piece. And yes as a military member (any rank) you can question all you want - but you're still going to do your job or get fired, bottom line. Don't do your job in air traffic control and you answer to an even higher authority - the FAA. Ask Marso how that can affect a career!

Really, I remember the British troops getting a rousing speech along those lines, but maybe you do things differently.

So you're going with the old chestnut "just following orders"? How did that play out in the Hague Trials? The US is a "war machine", now?

Here's the thing, I was putting you in a favourable light there, giving a noble slant to something that was anything but. If you prefer the honesty, cool, you were participating in a completely illegal invasion which history already condemns and doubtless will do so more vehemently once we are past the stage of being careful what they say for fear of offending people like you who were there.

It wasn't on the scale of the Nazis, no, but it was no more warranted, legal or morally right than Hitler invading Poland and German soldiers used exactly the same line you just did.

I was told to do it.

Given the choice of doing that job or getting fired, getting fired was the right choice.

wow, where to start?
Really, I remember the British troops getting a rousing speech along those lines, but maybe you do things differently.
by "British troops" do you mean a televised, general pep talk for civilian & military consumption from the highest leadership, or unit level speeches by their commanders just for a unit's benefit? By this I mean Bush may have given public speeches in 2003 for the benefit of everyone in the U.S./world but he never addressed our unit face-to-face. I got a lot of briefings from a lot of other military leaders but unless I'm being given specific information I don't listen to motivational speeches. My wife saw Bush on TV with the famous "let's roll!" comment
and told me (via phone conversation) that the war had started! The phone is right in the command tent, and I told my commander and he said "no shit? Nobody told us about it yet. I'll have to start asking around higher up the chain. Tell your wife thanks for the heads-up!"

you were participating in a completely illegal invasion which history already condemns
okay I explained this to you and others too - I don't have a hand in making the big decisions. I am an employee in a sea of other employees.
It's like flipping hamburgers at McDonalds in that regard. If the CEO of McDonalds says no more hamburgers, now we will serve turkeyburgers should I quit my job? I flip whatever McDonalds wants flipped. I might think turkeyburgers are a terrible idea but amazingly enough the CEO never consulted me first! The nerve of that bastard!

It wasn't on the scale of the Nazis, no, but it was no more warranted, legal or morally right than Hitler invading Poland and German soldiers used exactly the same line you just did.​

I was told to do it.​

Given the choice of doing that job or getting fired, getting fired was the right choice.​

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Well you are right in one regard - it wasn't on the scale of the Nazis. And those soldiers were drafted, they didn't have the option of just getting fired, they would be fired upon by their leaders. That said take a step back and think for a minute:​

there I was 41 years old with many years invested in a career, a wife and two kids. Would you have chosen getting fired? If so, I respect your decision. That would be the right choice for you. But that would not be a smart decision for me to make for obvious, previously mentioned reasons. I'm dedicated to the welfare of my family, full stop. For less obvious reasons I believe in starting what you finish. I signed a contract well before the war started and it's only fair that I honor my agreement. Everyone in the military is quite aware of the "mission statement" and that it involves force whether as a deterrent to aggression or applying force in the best interests of our nation. We are aware that we (the individual members) cannot "cherry pick" our tasks. That said if we feel that any task is ​

counter to our religious, philosophical or moral convictions we can go through the official process of quitting. The sandbox didn't trigger (no pun intended) any of these three things for me, so I did indeed pass "GO" and collect my 200 dollars when I retired in 2006. ​

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And therein lies your problem.

No, the Nazi soldiers didn't have a choice, that's a point in their defence, not yours. You chose to take part in an illegal invasion, they did not.

Anyway, so you went into a command tent and, wait, back up there. Command tent?

So you were already deployed and expecting to fight, you weren't exactly taken by surprise were you?

I don't for a second believe there's no pro US propaganda delivered to the US military, any less than any other army. I've been round barracks, been on courses delivered by the army, you might be surprised to learn, I've seen the flags everywhere, the posters and publications about our brave men and women fighting for our values, the speeches in honour of the sacrifices made "for the free world".

I don't believe for a second you didn't salute the flag, sing the anthem, swear to uphold the values of, yadda yadda. I don't for a second believe you weren't fed the line that you were "liberating" people, claim otherwise all you want but the simple problem it's like telling me the sky is green. Contrary to what you might think you aren't the only soldier I've met and you making that claim is clearly contrary to the experiences relayed by pretty much everyone else I've ever spoken to.

Whether it's in official press releases, speeches, mission briefings, basic training, whatever, somewhere along the line you've been told you were doing the right thing and something to be proud of. I call bullshit on any claim to the contrary because that's intrinsic to how militaries operate everywhere.

That leaves the "supporting your family" line. Fair enough, you want to feed your kids.

So did the German soldiers.

What about the kids and their parents living in the warzone you made, the society you ruined? What about the thousands of civilians who died without being given a choice in the matter, who just wanted to go about their lives without living in constant fear and seeing armed soldiers everywhere they went?

They were the people you were supposed to be helping and look, an entire generation has grown up knowing nothing but war and death. We now have grown adults whose earliest memories will be hiding under tables with their panicked parents as firefights happened in the streets, who see it as normality to have checkpoints and IEDs and suicide bombs and the pressure to join insurgencies because they've never known anything else, who grew up seeing their classmates killed on the way to school or getting there to find it was a smoking ruin and their teachers were blown into little pieces.

You wanted to do the right thing about your kids back home, the civilians there just wanted to keep theirs alive to see another day.

And you have the gall to call them terrorists and murderers for fighting back.

Actually, due to trump I don't pay taxes. But I am OK with you paying taxes and working for the government.Plunge those toilets and move that shit. I am sure things are well worth it for you. Like I have said, I am on the edge of wealthy.

It would be nice if I was wrong about @oldfella1962 and his bullshit, but I am not. The reality is he is just a dumbfuck gomer pile. Without any of that technology, superior firepower, and people like me thinking for him he would not know how to cross the road without getting run over. Oldfellah is not the type you have to worry about unless you are in his unit and then you have to deal with his fuck ups. The people who are in the military and deserve respect don't need to tell you that you owe them. They get respect because they actually do shit and they know that. Blowhards like oldfellah are the idiots we all have to clean up after and watch out for.

not a problem for me. You seem to have your knickers in a twist over it though.
Whatever, blame the U.S. taxpayers/voters for enabling my choice of employment. You don't pay U.S. taxes so you're off the hook.

"I don't believe for a second you didn't salute the flag, sing the anthem, swear to uphold the values of, yadda yadda. I don't for a second believe you weren't fed the line that you were "liberating" people, claim otherwise all you want but the simple problem it's like telling me the sky is green. Contrary to what you might think you aren't the only soldier I've met and you making that claim is clearly contrary to the experiences relayed by pretty much everyone else I've ever spoken to. " spotless261

let's examine this segment shall we?
1) yes I salute the flag! Every citizen should salute the flag of their nation IMHO.
2) yes I "sing" the anthem on occasion buy that opportunity rarely presents itself.
3) my higher leadership may have talked about "liberating" people but I wasn't "fed a line" because I didn't take too much stock in it.
Maybe you forgot, I was 41 years old when the war started - hardly a gullible child.
4) you've "met" soldiers? Well that's akin to being one, and living and working with soldiers/airmen from a multitude of differing military
occupations and backgrounds for decades.....wait no it's not.

"Like I have said, I am on the edge of wealthy." - Tererunt
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anywho Tererun I am a blowhard and braggart? Weird I don't claim I'm a cold blooded one-man Army or any crazy shit. I was just a typical airman/soldier with occasional flashes of greatness but not Audie Murphy and shit. I said it before - I was a bomb loader and then an air traffic control equipment guy. Yes I toted a weapon when required but so does everybody. Now I'm a contractor doing the same technical stuff I did in the military but not doing the tactical stuff - pretty much a very typical post-military job that pays a lot more than the average civilian job.

That's hardly bragging in my book. Yes I had wacky adventures but who wouldn't in a long career where wacky/weird/occasionally dangerous shit happens? But hey, feel free to "vent" or whatever it is you call what you do.

Seriously dude...


You have the gall to pass judgement on soldiers who were fighting a war that that was sanctioned by Congress and backed by the U.K, Australia, Poland and 36 other countries at the time. It's so easy after the fact to say "you shouldn't have done that." I wasn't happy with it either, but the blame lies with former President Bush, Dick Cheney and the weak intelligence that was used to justify the war. Not the soldiers who signed up and served their country after witnessing terrorists murder close to 3,000 New Yorkers. Iraq was never a war with the intention of taking over territory and subjugating the people in concentration camps so enough with the weak Nazi comparisons. Unless you wore that uniform and served your country you have no clue what serving in the military is all about.

If it was a Bombardier it probably crashed, and wasn't shot down. Piece of shit French Canadian planes

Being an amoral drone absolutely is a problem for you, no matter how much you try to pass the buck to US taxpayers, your higher-ups or anyone else.

Bollocks.

Utter bollocks,

You don't have to serve in the military to know right from wrong, to have a sense of decency and to actually think for yourself.

The war was passed by Congress? Well woopie fucking do, every war is passed by someone, but that doesn't make it right, it doesn't reduce the damage done. You may fetishise the act of putting on a uniform but I have more sympathy for the civilians who didn't get that choice, who didn't get to go home afterwards. They're the victims here, not the people invading them.

So fuck you. I don't give a fuck if you've served because knowing war isn't being sent there, it's living in it, being terrified in your own home for years on end with no medals, no hope, no control. That's what the crowning glory of the careers of those soldiers is, not defending freedom, not protecting the world. Just destroying someone else's homes and lives.

We don't all mindlessly hero worship those who have been in the military, don't see a uniform and respect the person in it simply for putting it on. Some of us made a deliberate choice not to wear a uniform and are proud we didn't.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, it was an excuse, nothing more so don't be using those people's deaths to lend some honour or credibility to a fucking war crime.