Gender pronouns in Canada

Are you still going? You don't have to convince me of anything, I already know where you stand. You don't think transgender people are deserving of basic human respect. Twist it all you want, but that's what it is. Own up to it or go on in denial. I don't have time to keep patting your hand and telling you it's okay, they'll still like you. Yeesh!

Ethically, and in many places legally, exactly the same thing as if they hold a religious belief that blacks (or women) are inferior and should be treated as such.

He doesn't seem to grasp this, and it's because he thinks you're delusional and won't entertain that delusion. He may soften it somewhat in words, but that is what he thinks.

This.

Saying "But my religion dictates that I get to shit on people!" does not obligate your boss to let you shit on people while on the job.

Paladin's all about personal responsibility until it gets him fired, then it's coercion.

I wonder how he would deal with black people who have very light skin color? How long would he override their statements about being black, by referring to them as white? I mean, if he can't accept it, then it doesn't exist. Paladin is the be-all end-all of reality, the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable. That is freedom.

I'd actually say that probably wasn't a joke either.

He's talking about both extremes. Also notice that both sides like to hate on moderates as an enemy (which is the point I was actually driving at). This has been seen before in Europe post WWII, particularly in Italy, where both the communist and fascist revolutionaries accused moderates of enabling the other side. You know, kind of like we see butthurt Clinton supporters going on about even now.

Oh, please tell me you think you're a moderate.

Compared to you.

An interesting point.

Rachel Dolezal doesn't get hired for a job. She sues on the grounds that she was discriminated against because she's black. Does the lawsuit have merit?

Interpretations have no objective reality. If I don't agree with an interpretation, it doesn't exist...for me. You're welcome to have a different interpretation.

How many ideas do you endorse that you don't believe?

I had no idea I was endowed with such power. I thought I was only in control of what I believe. Apparently, I'm somehow in control of what you believe, too!

A single snowflake is harmless, but gather enough of them together and you have an avalanche. No man is an island, and no idea stays imprisoned in a single mind.

our human rights code is pretty abstract like that, sure he can be accused. thing is, it's now up to the SJWs (and those after Peterson are SJW cry bullies) to prove he's violated the HRC.

also, these aren't his "superiors"

Petersen is a psychology professor. Cameron is dean of a different school within the UofT, Nelson doesn't have the authority to terminate his position as he's tenured.

Meh - I think @Paladin 's being fair. He's not going to go out of his way to marginalize or oppress trans people and as he said he would be polite in the presence of one, just not use a pronoun that he disagrees with on a personal level. He doesn't sound like he's going to throw it in their face or anything like that.

Honestly, I think that's pretty good considering he's an older guy that didn't grow up in these more accepting generations of people where trans rights has been much more at the forefront (no offense, P).

There's far, far worse people out there.

I'm sorry dude, but there're a lot of us fellow snowflakes who aren't going to join this blizzard. Personalized, custom pronouns are mostly an issue of the privileged (UofT is Ivy League) wanting their fetishes recognized as gender conditions.

I'm 36, and was raised in a Christian fundamentalist household (Holiness Pentecostal, to be exact). I was raised anti-science, anti-choice, anti-gay, and you didn't question God's Law. That persisted into my 20s, until I broke free from it. I understand what you mean, and yeah, when you're older it's harder to get out from under certain perspectives that have persisted for most of your life, but this goes beyond simple belief. There are people who believe that black people are inferior to whites. I don't have to respect that, and I don't. There are people who believe women belong in the kitchen, and should be seen, not heard. I don't have to respect that, and I don't. There are people who believe that transgender men are still women, and that transgender women are still men. I don't have to respect that, and I don't.

All of these things are equal, and if history unfolds as it has in the past, that, too, will become the norm as the majority realize that they have yet one more perspective to change. Whether they will, or not, is always up to many variables that are impossible to predict with any real accuracy until they've actually happened, but I can at least start here, and now, instead of just waiting for the tide to begin turning to where it's comfortable.

I feel you bud, and you're more than entitled to feel a lack of respect for it. However, I will say I do think this energy would be better spent on someone with far more mean and bigoted views than Paladin.

Bigger fish to fry.

I can do two things!

totally separate than recognizing and enforcing "Zhe" and "Hir/Hem".
The trans people in my neighbourhood are referred to as the gender they present themselves. He or she.
The couple of intersexed folks I know (as opposed to in transition) go by what they express a preference for (including neutral-which, to be fair-can be utilized even with folks of a defined gender). He/She/They

Tumblr genders, for lack of a more commonly understood term, aren't genders or even sexualities. For instance, claiming to be a cetero-sexual sapiophile is nothing more than you're maybe bi(not sure though) and maybe have a thing for dressing up, while digging folks who validate your self image of intellect. IOW, about 2/3 of college age humans.
Zhe/Hir/Hen

Has John advocated for using such foolishness?

Language evolves on an as-needed basis ("prioritize" wasn't a word before the 1980s, as one example), but I assume he was referring to the vast majority of trans folks who are going by already established pronouns in place. As turkey said, there's a reason this hasn't caught on outside of tumblr.

Hard to say at this point... I think of the two sides of the OP coin, he's on the one that's pushing for recognition of fetishes as equal to sexuality and gender identity.

This. I'm not advocating government enforcement, or for any word that comes down the pipeline without having been established in some form. There are gender non-binary words that people like to go by, and I respect them, and use those pronouns. They are in the tiniest minority at this point. Perhaps those words will gain established usage, maybe they'll stay niche. Regardless, I'm talking about a transgender woman being called "he," even though she has firmly established her pronouns are feminine.

I object to your choice of the word "fetish" in regards to how people identify themselves. Being gay was seen as a perversion less than two decades ago, and there are still groups who still believe it is. Your choice of verbiage here has similar tones.

object all you want.
I equally object to trying to call fetishes identities and equating them with being gay or trans.

Links?

I want proof that this is happening in that sense.

Here's the list from Tumblr itself (no presumption intended)



Abimegender: a gender that is profound, deep, and infinite; meant to resemble when one mirror is reflecting into another mirror creating an infinite paradox

Adamasgender: a gender which refuses to be categorized

Aerogender: a gender that is influenced by your surroundings

Aesthetigender: a gender that is derived from an aesthetic; also known as videgender

Affectugender: a gender that is affected by mood swings

Agender: the feeling of no gender/absence of gender or neutral gender

Agenderflux: being mostly agender except having small shifts towards other genders making them demigenders (because of the constancy of being agender)

Alexigender: a gender that is fluid between more than one gender but the individual cannot tell what those genders are

Aliusgender: a gender which is removed from common gender descriptors and guidelines

Amaregender: a gender that changes depending on who you’re in love with

Ambigender: defined as having the feeling of two genders simultaneously without fluctuation; meant to reflect the concept of being ambidextrous, only with gender

Ambonec: identifying as both man and woman, yet neither at the same time

Amicagender: a gender that changes depending on which friend you’re with

Androgyne: sometimes used in the case of “androgynous presentation”; describes the feeling of being a mix of both masculine and feminine (and sometimes neutral) gender qualities

Anesigender: feeling like a certain gender yet being more comfortable identifying with another

Angenital: a desire to be without primary sexual characteristics, without necessarily being genderless; one may be both angenital and identify as any other gender alongside

Anogender: a gender that fades in and out but always comes back to the same feeling

Anongender: a gender that is unknown to both yourself and others

Antegender: a protean gender which has the potential to be anything, but is formless and motionless, and therefore, does not manifest as any particular gender

Anxiegender: a gender that is affected by anxiety

Apagender: a feeling of apathy towards ones gender which leads to them not looking any further into it

Apconsugender: a gender where you know what it isn’t, but not what it is; the gender is hiding itself from you

Astergender: a gender that feels bright and celestial

Astralgender: a gender that feels connected to space

Autigender: a gender that can only be understood in the context of being autistic

Autogender: a gender experience that is deeply personal to oneself

Axigender: when a person experiences two genders that sit on opposite ends of an axis; one being agender and the other being any other gender; these genders are experienced one at a time with no overlapping and with very short transition time.

Bigender: the feeling of having two genders either at the same time or separately; usually used to describe feeling “traditionally male” and “traditionally female”, but does not have to

Biogender: a gender that feels connected to nature in some way

Blurgender: the feeling of having more than one gender that are somehow blurred together to the point of not being able to distinguish or identify individual genders; synonymous with genderfuzz

Boyflux: when one feels mostly or all male most of the time but experience fluctuating intensity of male identity

Burstgender: and gender that comes in intense bursts of feeling and quickly fades back to the original state

Caelgender: a gender which shares qualities with outer space or has the aesthetic of space, stars, nebulas, etc.

Cassgender: the feeling of gender is unimportant to you

Cassflux: when the level of indifference towards your gender fluctuates

Cavusgender: for people with depression; when you feel one gender when not depressed and another when depressed

Cendgender: when your gender changes between one and its opposite

Ceterofluid: when you are ceterogender and your feelings fluctuate between masculine, feminine, and neutral

Ceterogender: a nonbinary gender with specific masculine, feminine, or neutral feelings

Cisgender: the feeling of being the gender you were assigned at birth, all the time (assigned (fe)male/feeling (fe)male)

Cloudgender: a gender that cannot be fully realized or seen clearly due to depersonalization/derealization disorder

Collgender: the feeling of having too many genders simultaneously to describe each one

Colorgender: a gender associated with one or more colors and the feelings, hues, emotions, and/or objects associated with that color; may be used like pinkgender, bluegender, yellowgender

Commogender: when you know you aren’t cisgender, but you settled with your assigned gender for the time being

Condigender: a gender that is only felt during certain circumstances

Deliciagender: from the Latin word delicia meaning “favorite”, meaning the feeling of having more than one simultaneous gender yet preferring one that fits better

Demifluid: the feeling your gender being fluid throughout all the demigenders; the feeling of having multiple genders, some static and some fluid

Demiflux: the feeling of having multiple genders, some static and some fluctuating

Demigender: a gender that is partially one gender and partially another

Domgender: having more than one gender yet one being more dominant than the others

Demi-vapor (term coined by @cotton-blossom-jellyfish): Continuously drifting to other genders, feeling spiritually transcendental when doing so while having a clear -slightly blurred- inner visual of your genders, transitions, and positive emotions. Tied to Demi-Smoke.

Demi-smoke (term coined by @cotton-blossom-jellyfish): A transcendental, spiritual gender roughly drifting to other genders that are unable to be foreseen and understood, shrouded in darkness within your inner visual. Elevating through mystery. Caused by a lack of inner interpretation and dark emotional states. Tied to Demi-Vapor.

Duragender: from the Latin word dura meaning “long-lasting”, meaning a subcategory of multigender in which one gender is more identifiable, long lasting, and prominent than the other genders

Egogender: a gender that is so personal to your experience that it can only be described as “you”

Epicene: sometimes used synonymously with the adjective “androgynous”; the feeling either having or not displaying characteristics of both or either binary gender; sometimes used to describe feminine male identifying individuals

Espigender: a gender that is related to being a spirit or exists on a higher or extradimensional plane

Exgender: the outright refusal to accept or identify in, on, or around the gender spectrum

Existigender: a gender that only exists or feels present when thought about or when a conscious effort is made to notice it

Femfluid: having fluctuating or fluid gender feelings that are limited to feminine genders

Femgender: a nonbinary gender which is feminine in nature

Fluidflux: the feeling of being fluid between two or more genders that also fluctuate in intensity; a combination of genderfluid and genderflux

Gemigender: having two opposite genders that work together, being fluid and flux together

Genderblank: a gender that can only be described as a blank space; when gender is called into question, all that comes to mind is a blank space

Genderflow: a gender that is fluid between infinite feelings

Genderfluid: the feeling of fluidity within your gender identity; feeling a different gender as time passes or as situations change; not restricted to any number of genders

Genderflux: the feeling of your gender fluctuating in intensity; like genderfluid but between one gender and agender

Genderfuzz: coined by lolzmelmel; the feeling of having more than one gender that are somehow blurred together to the point of not being able to distinguish or identify individual genders; synonymous with blurgender

Gender Neutral: the feeling of having a neutral gender, whether somewhere in between masculine and feminine or a third gender that is separate from the binary; often paired with neutrois

Genderpunk: a gender identity that actively resists gender norms

Genderqueer: originally used as an umbrella term for nonbinary individuals; may be used as an identity; describes a nonbinary gender regardless of whether the individual is masculine or feminine leaning

Genderwitched: a gender in which one is intrigued or entranced by the idea of a particular gender, but is not certain that they are actually feeling it

Girlflux: when one feels mostly or all female most of the time but experiences fluctuating intensities of female identity

Glassgender: a gender that is very sensitive and fragile

Glimragender: a faintly shining, wavering gender

Greygender: having a gender that is mostly outside of the binary but is weak and can barely be felt

Gyragender: having multiple genders but understanding none of them

Healgender: a gender that once realized, brings lots of peace, clarity, security, and creativity to the individual’s mind

Heliogender: a gender that is warm and burning

Hemigender: a gender that is half one gender and half something else; one or both halves may be identifiable genders

Horogender: a gender that changes over time with the core feeling remaining the same

Hydrogender: a gender which shares qualities with water

Imperigender: a fluid gender that can be controlled by the individual

Intergender: the feeling of gender falling somewhere on the spectrum between masculine and feminine; note: do not confuse with intersex

Juxera: a feminine gender similar to girl, but on a separate plane and off to itself

Libragender: a gender that feels agender but has a strong connection to another gender

Magigender: a gender that is mostly gender and the rest is something else

Mascfluid: A gender that is fluid in nature, and restricted only to masculine genders

Mascgender: a non-binary gender which is masculine in nature.

Maverique: taken from the word maverick; the feeling of having a gender that is separate from masculinity, femininity, and neutrality, but is not agender; a form of third gender

Mirrorgender: a gender that changes to fit the people around you

Molligender: a gender that is soft, subtle, and subdued

Multigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand omnigender

Nanogender: feeling a small part of one gender with the rest being something else

Neutrois: the feeling of having a neutral gender; sometimes a lack of gender that leads to feeling neutral

Nonbinary: originally an umbrella term for any gender outside the binary of cisgenders; may be used as an individual identity; occasionally used alongside of genderqueer

Omnigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand polygender

Oneirogender: coined by anonymous, “being agender, but having recurring fantasies or daydreams of being a certain gender without the dysphoria or desire to actually be that gender day-to-day”

Pangender: the feeling of having every gender; this is considered problematic by some communities and thus has been used as the concept of relating in some way to all genders as opposed to containing every gender identity; only applies to genders within one’s own culture

Paragender: the feeling very near one gender and partially something else which keeps you from feeling fully that gender

Perigender: identifying with a gender but not as a gender

Polygender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand omnigender

Proxvir: a masculine gender similar to boy, but on a separate plane and off to itself

Quoigender: feeling as if the concept of gender is inapplicable or nonsensical to one’s self

Subgender: mostly agender with a bit of another gender

Surgender: having a gender that is 100% one gender but with more of another gender added on top of that

Systemgender: a gender that is the sum of all the genders within a multiple or median system

Tragender: a gender that stretches over the whole spectrum of genders

Transgender: any gender identity that transcends or does not align with your assigned gender or society’s idea of gender; the feeling of being any gender that does not match your assigned gender

Trigender: the feeling of having three simultaneous or fluctuating genders

Vapogender: a gender that sort of feels like smoke; can be seen on a shallow level but once you go deeper, it disappears and you are left with no gender and only tiny wisps of what you thought it was

Venngender: when two genders overlap creating an entirely new gender; like a venn diagram

Verangender: a gender that seems to shift/change the moment it is identified

Vibragender: a gender that is usually one stable gender but will occasionally changes or fluctuate before stabilizing again

Vocigender: a gender that is weak or hollow

Quick, get me pronouns for each of those!

in some of these, you're right... they aren't fetishes.

they're mood swings.

As a second wave punk rocker, I must protest "gender punk" as both cultural appropriation and class colonialism

Wow...I almost wish I hadn't asked!

I don't deny there's some special snowflake-y aspect to some of those, I'm open to the idea of having more words to describing gender than fewer and that doesn't mean it's just some fetish.

On a tangent to that, I've noticed the term "hermaphodite" has fallen out of favor and replaced with "intersexed"...which to me makes more sense, since most people born with both sets of genitals or extra sex chromosomes still strongly identify as one gender or the other.

exactly...
this is (mostly) a culture of the privileged trying hard to be marginalized.

I see your list. Now tell me which ones I objected to. You can't, because you didn't bother to ask. You just assumed I meant every single word that everyone on Tumblr has ever used to describe themselves and their sexuality. That's a nice little sleight of hand trick, but it doesn't get to the heart of what I've been discussing with Paladin regarding transgender people and the pronouns they use to describe themselves.

Also, yes, I do object to your use of the word "fetish" as a way to disregard people exploring their sexuality and gender. For you, it may be far more simple. For people who are unsure of who they are, it's a different story. What means nothing to you may mean the world to them. Some of the people there may very well be making up terms to describe something they wish to feel, or in order to be a part of a minority, that does happen. Human sexuality, though, is very fluid, and it does not always fit on a neat label.

As recently as 10 years ago, being trans was just something perverts talked about in order to get their sexual kicks. There are people who still think bisexuals are just gay people who are afraid to come out of the closet. So yeah, there may be a few people in those groups who are just making shit up to belong to something, and they shouldn't, because it does take away from people who genuinely feel the way they do. At the same time, you could be a lot less flippant about it, because you don't know. You may think it coddling, you might think I'm gullible for giving any of it consideration, and you may not truly care, but by god I'm tired of people dying because no one believed them, and they felt alone in the world. Spend hours, days, weeks, months, years in the trans community, getting to know these people, listening to them, comforting them when their loved ones cast them out, or their friends die from suicide, or hatred at the hands of others, and you discover a great many things about humanity in general.

Sorry to seem so maudlin about it, but this isn't perversion, it's not a fetish, and these people aren't necessarily imagining it. At the very least, I give them the benefit of the doubt before making them seem like they're freaks who have no place to go.

T-t-t-triple post!